Pregnancy and Postpartum Comfort & Lymphatic Massage with Leah Levitan

[00:01:23] Gina: Welcome to the MamasteFit Podcast. In this episode, we have Leah Levitan here, who is going to be talking all about lymphatic massage and supporting the lymph system and all that good stuff during pregnancy and to

support you while you’re breastfeeding. So thanks so much for being here with us, Leah.

[00:01:39] Leah: Oh, thanks so much for having me. I feel like I’ve learned so much from you, from your page. Really. I love what you guys are doing.

[00:01:45] Gina: I’ve learned a ton from yours as well. It’s a mutual learning. So I’m glad to be a part of that. Could you introduce yourself to our listeners who may not be familiar with you?

[00:01:55] Leah: Sure. So my name’s Leah as heard from the intro just a second ago, and I’m a licensed massage therapist, a certified lymphatic therapist, and the founder of Lymph Love Club. So I’m an online educator, but I also work with clients in person in Austin, Texas. And man, I just, I love lymph!

[00:02:18] Gina: So can we start with just explaining, as simply as we can, what the lymph system is?

[00:02:24] Gina: Because this is something that was newer knowledge for me that I think I probably learned from your page. And I was like, what do you mean that there’s this whole system?

[00:02:33] Roxanne: And I mean, even me as like a healthcare provider and student midwife, like the lymph system is not thoroughly explained, I feel like, in school. Like I know it’s there and there’s lymph nodes and they’re part of your immune system, but…

[00:02:46] Gina: But what is it?

[00:02:48] Leah: So it’s kind of got two roles. One, it’s the other half of your cardio, like your cardiovascular system. The vascular systems are the cardiovascular and the lymphatics. And they always work together. It’s just like a pressure system. Everybody, I think most people, know that the cardiovascular system pumps blood to and from the cells to deliver oxygen and nutrients. And then when our cells are damaged or dying, so that they can be replaced with new cells every single day, or maybe we’ve got some toxins coming in from all angles, our lymphatic system kind of picks up that cellular waste and the things that don’t belong, the things that might cause harm to the body. And so they kind of work together in that way.

[00:03:36] Leah: And then the other half of that is the immune aspect. Our lymphatic system plays such a huge role in our immune health. All the things

that are trying to kill us, you know, it keeps us from being invaded from foreign invaders.

[00:03:54] Gina: So it seems like a, it seems like a pretty big deal.

[00:03:56] Roxanne: Pretty important.

[00:03:57] Leah: Yeah. Super important.

[00:03:59] Gina: And so one of the things, I think a lot of people are scared to do things during pregnancy just in general, cause there’s a lot of like fear mongering and, “Don’t eat this. Don’t do that. Don’t do that.” Can you even do lymphatic massage during pregnancy? It seems like a really important system, so I think the answer is yes, but I just want to get it from the expert.

[00:04:17] Leah: Yes. So I actually see, we see a lot of pre and postpartum ladies in our office. And it’s so, so helpful for just throughout pregnancy and then for the recovery process. So we see a lot of fluid accumulation, a lot of low back pain and just sort of easing symptoms, you know? Whether it’s fatigue or like gastrointestinal upset or heartburn. Everybody’s kind of, everybody’s pregnancy is different, right? But lymphatic drainage can be really soothing and, check a lot of boxes for people. So I can’t say that it’s safe for everyone, right? I mean, if people are having like a high risk pregnancy where they’ve got, like high blood pressure, things like that. But for the most part, it’s really great and pretty conservative care, I would say.

[00:05:18] Gina: So what are some ways that we can incorporate lymphatic massage or how do you support someone during their pregnancy who’s a low risk pregnancy, no like serious complications going on? What are like the key things that you’re looking for when you’re supporting someone during a pregnancy?

[00:05:34] Leah: I’m looking for how easy it is for them to move, to stay moving.

[00:05:41] Leah: The lymphatic system doesn’t have a pump, not like the cardiovascular system does. And so muscle activation is really important for pumping that lymph. So just kind of making sure that we’re addressing their needs to keep them as comfortable as possible during the process.

[00:06:00] Gina: Okay. So I know that there’s like big nodes of…

[00:06:05] Roxanne: Lymph nodes.

[00:06:05] Gina: Like big areas that we’re kind of like directing all of the fluid towards. And so the muscular activation is kind of helping to like pump that lymph fluid, I think that’s what it’s referred to, back to the nodes to… Can you kind of explain like where you might be like targeting during a pregnancy to help somebody?

[00:06:27] Leah: Sure.

[00:06:28] Roxanne: Like where someone might have like buildup.

[00:06:30] Leah: Yeah. Well, there’s there’s choke points in the body where lymph tends to get stuck. And those areas are where, are usually where there’s major clusters of lymph nodes, which is near our major joints. So the body has put these lymph nodes- those are, if you’re not familiar with what lymph nodes are, they’re just like tiny organs of the lymphatic system. They’re almost like little filtration stations, if you will. So they have immune cells and the lymphatic fluid that’s flowing in and out of these lymph nodes has immune cells. And that’s where that immune aspect comes in.

[00:07:07] Leah: And so we’ve got about six to seven hundred lymph nodes throughout the body. But a third of them are located in our head and neck. We have a lymphatic system in our brain. And so that really keeps things, keeps things clean in there. Prevents neurodegenerative diseases, which is great. So the brain just needs a lot of lymph action going on. Plus, we’ve got our airways, you know, so it’s sort of like the lymphatic system is guarding the front door, if you will. We’ve got, clusters in our armpits that drain our breast tissue. We’ve got a ton of lymph nodes in our abdomen and our pelvis. And then we’ve got some clusters, just in the hip line, like the crease of our hips. Those are the inguinal clusters. And then we’ve got a couple behind the knee.

[00:07:57] Leah: So a lot of times during pregnancy or the later stages of pregnancy, the baby is really compressing those pelvic lymph nodes, those abdominal lymph nodes, right? The baby’s got to go somewhere, so it’s really compressing the lymphatic vessels. And that’s why we see a lot, that’s why we see so much fluid accumulation in the lower body. There’s like a little channel, like a main channel. It’s called the thoracic duct. It’s about the width of a pencil. And that, that little duct goes up through the abdomen, through the diaphragm, before all that fluid from the lower body goes back into cardiovascular circulation. So once the lymph has been cleaned and filtered, then it’s known as plasma.

[00:08:42] Leah: So, that’s just a little bit of like how that lymph flows through those clusters of lymph nodes. But, really cool how they’re stationed by the joints, so that when we move, we’re kind of pumping our lymph too.

[00:08:56] Gina: That makes a ton of sense of why it would. It’s almost like the way that our bodies were designed was intentional in some way.

[00:09:06] Gina: So if somebody’s having more of the lower body swelling during pregnancy, which I think is pretty common, sometimes for me on like really hot days, my husband would be like, “Your shoes look like they’re a little tight.” And I’m like, “How dare you even mention that? What are some techniques that you may do for somebody or you may recommend somebody do to help with the lower body kind of swelling during pregnancy?

[00:09:28] Roxanne: Or even just swelling in general.

[00:09:30] Leah: Right. Swelling in general. We all deal with swelling and the lymphatic system plays such a crucial role in that maintaining fluid balance.

[00:09:41] Leah: So I really recommend that people wear compression socks. if you’re familiar with compression socks, or even compression leggings, they make all different types and sizes. They go just below the knee, just above the knee, like mid thigh, or you can get some leggings that go all the way up around the hips too. And compression, I consider compression to be almost like passive self care. It’s once you get them on, then that’s it. You don’t have to do anything. So I think that’s a really great way to support the lymphatic system when you’re dealing with that fluid accumulation.

[00:10:21] Leah: Also going back to like muscle activation, I know that you guys share a lot of like movement based videos, and I love that. And I think that something as simple as doing like some calf raises where you’re just kind of pumping, you know, you’re pumping your calves and just helping that lymph get back towards the heart. Deep belly breathing is another good one. Cause it’s, like not everybody’s going to be able to elevate their legs up, especially during the later portion of pregnancy, right? We’re not supposed to be lying flat on our backs for too long just to compress those, those vascular structures. So elevation for the legs is great postpartum, especially during the earlier portions of your pregnancy. But gravity can be a really good friend to the lymphatic system.

[00:11:15] Gina: I love it. I didn’t even think about doing just like calf raises and just moving your body. Would like walks and stuff also be like beneficial?

[00:11:23] Leah: Oh totally!

[00:11:24] Gina: For swelling? If you’re wearing like compression socks.

[00:11:27] Leah: Yeah.

[00:11:27] Gina: I feel like walking, it’s like, “Drink water and go for a walk!” is like always the answer.

[00:11:31] Leah: Right?

[00:11:32] Roxanne: Oh, yeah. So I mean like when I was pregnant, working, I’d sit at a desk to chart and not really walk around except to walk into my patient’s room. So it was like I was walking but not really long periods of time. At the end of the day I take my compression socks off and they’re just lines on my legs from the fact that my legs were just so swollen from just sitting for a long period. Which sounds crazy, I don’t sit that much at work, but it’s just you’re sitting, your hips and your legs are at like a 90 degree angle, you’re just compressing all of those, that lymph area here, and so there’s just pooling in the lower half of your legs. And my friends who were older and they had babies before, they were like, “Roxanne, you need to go walk more throughout the day. Go walking between charts. Don’t sit there the whole day!” And I was like, “Well, you say that, but then I have to sit there and chart for 18 hours after my shift!” So… But no, I could, I would notice a difference when I would walk and I wouldn’t walk, in the swelling in my legs and feet. So I believe it.

[00:12:43] Leah: Yeah. And I kind of forgot to mention that like skin dry brushing is also really helpful. I don’t, for whatever reason, my mind just always goes to those like foundational things where I’m just like, stay hydrated, make sure that you’re replenishing your minerals to kind of help with that fluid maintenance there. Gravity. Muscle activation. But I forget that yes, we can also be doing some skin dry brushing, which is really helpful for just supporting like the superficial lymphatic system, which is just where most of the lymph is formed, just below the surface of the skin.

[00:13:21] Gina: Let’s take a break from this week’s episode to talk about our podcast sponsor, Needed.

[00:13:24] Gina: Needed is a nutrition company that specializes in optimizing nourishment for the perianal timeframe, so helping to support you preconception, conception, during your pregnancy, postpartum, and they’re a company that Roxanne and I have utilized during our own pregnancy and motherhood journey.

[00:13:38] Roxanne: And one of their bundles that was one of my favorites during my postpartum was their lactation support bundle. So this is a bundle that they created with different products to help support you in your lactation journey. So one of the things was their collagen protein, like just like really great protein that is, one, clean, as well as supporting our bodies because our protein demands during breastfeeding is a lot higher.

[00:13:59] Roxanne: They also include their stress support to help because breastfeeding and postpartum is a stressful time, and their stress support is a non medication based like adaptogenics to help you deal with stress. So if you want to check out their lactation support bundle, head to thisisneeded.com and you can use code MAMASTEPOD to get 20 percent off your first order or the first month of your subscription.

[00:14:21] Gina: And you have like a dry brushing guide. I know I bought that. I haven’t looked at it yet, but I have intentions to. But you have that, and it’s only $20 too. And so when we’re doing the dry brushing, are we brushing towards lymph nodes, or how are we…? Because it just feels good against my skin.

[00:14:40] Roxanne: I have a dry brush. I have not used it, as well.

[00:14:41] Gina: And so I’ll do like little circles, and I’ll brush, up my legs, and I’m like, “I don’t know if I’m doing this right, but it feels nice.”

[00:14:48] Roxanne: Or even, you could do, the Gua Sha stone to help.

[00:14:53] Leah: Totally.

[00:14:53] Roxanne: But I think that’s more on the face. But is that like another option, or?

[00:14:57] Leah: Yeah, you can definitely use a Gua Sha stone on your legs.

[00:15:01] Leah: Gua Sha was like originally used for the body and we only recently, in the last 25 years started using it on our face. Which is interesting.

[00:15:09] Roxanne: Oh! Yeah. So I guess how would one do either of those?

[00:15:15] Leah: So how, let’s just go with the dry brushing first. So because the lymphatic system is like a pressure system, it moves from high pressure to low pressure.

[00:15:27] Leah: So the lowest pressure in the body is going to be right behind the collarbones. And what you’re going to do is just kind of press your fingers behind the collarbones. I like to do this little crisscross applesauce kind of thing where I’m almost, do it like a W or like a bird, if you will, whatever.

[00:15:46] Roxanne: Or like a butterfly.

[00:15:47] Leah: A butterfly, a Wu Tang symbol, whatever it looks like to you. And you just kind of put your hands over your collarbones and do some kind of circle, some little circles with some compression where you’re just pressing down into that little triangle behind your shoulder muscle and your collarbone just right at the base of the neck.

[00:16:10] Leah: So that right there is just going to change the pressure of the system and it’s going to allow for lymphatic fluid to start being pulled back into cardiovascular circulation. So I always recommend anything that you’re doing for your lymphatic system to start with that.

[00:16:26] Gina: Okay, that’s key. Alright.

[00:16:28] Roxanne: Okay.

[00:16:28] Gina: Have not been doing that. I will incorporate that.

[00:16:32] Leah: It’ll really boost the results of whatever you’re trying to do for your lymphatic system. And and you can also do that like prior to working out too. Like prior to an exercise or a walk pressing behind your collarbones, or you could do something known as The Big Six.

[00:16:49] Leah: Are you familiar with Dr. Perry’s work?

[00:16:51] Gina: Nope.

[00:16:51] Leah: Okay. So he is kind of like how I got into this. He’s a chiropractor from New Jersey and he had a chronic illness and he sort of just started investigating like how to figure out how to get better. And it turned, out that taking care of his lymphatic system is what got him back on track. And so that’s when he started sharing about it.

[00:17:15] Leah: And so he came up with this method called The Big Six. It’s just, it’s so great. It starts with the collarbones, just like I talked about, but then it goes over those lymphatic choke points in the body, which happened to be where those major clusters of lymph nodes are that we went over earlier.

[00:17:33] Leah: So like the armpits. the abdomen, the hip creases and behind the knees, you kind of just rub each of those points and then you could start your dry brushing. I teach it a little bit differently, but I just feel like The Big Six is one of those. It’s like easy enough for everybody to understand and quick enough that you can do it every day and be really consistent with it and see really great results.

[00:18:03] Gina: Do you have to do The Big Six in a certain order or is it just you do the one by the collarbone first and then whatever order is fine?

[00:18:11] Leah: It actually is done in a particular order just because of the pressure aspect of the lymphatic system.

[00:18:18] Leah: So number one, always being like the collarbone area.

[00:18:23] Leah: Number two is the sides of the neck. You just kind of rub in little circles, you could do one or two fingers. And that’s like where your vagus nerve comes out there. The largest lymph node in your neck is there. So you just kind of, you’re kind of tuning in there, and by stimulating the vagus nerve you’re allowing your nervous system to shift into the parasympathetic and kind of dilate your lymphatic vessels. So it increases flow throughout the whole body. It’s pretty cool.

[00:18:53] Leah: Then you would move on to the armpits, which are number three. Four is going to be the abdomen. Five is the hips. And then six is behind the knee.

[00:19:03] Leah: So I actually have that video pinned to my profile. So if you were to do this before you started dry brushing, when you get to the dry brushing strokes, I try to describe it as trying to get the last line of dust in the dust pan. You know what I’m talking about? Like that last line of dust.

[00:19:22] Roxanne: Oh my gosh, yes.

[00:19:24] Leah: And you kind of have to, you keep having to, like, scoot back the dust pan. So, that’s kind of what the brush strokes look like, or should look like. You can do a circular motion if that feels good. But lymph only flows in one direction. There’s these little flaps in the lymphatic vessels that prevent backflow. And so, if you’re doing like a one directional, swift, gentle stroke, real nice and short, you’ll move a little bit more lymphatic fluid.

[00:19:57] Roxanne: And is it always like towards the heart?

[00:20:00] Leah: It is, yeah.

[00:20:01] Roxanne: That you’re doing the dry brushing?

[00:20:02] Leah: Yeah. I notice I see a lot of videos that start with the hands and the feet, but if you work a little bit closer to the center of your body and then slowly make your way down to your hands and your feet, we usually will

dry brush those last. That’s like kind of how I teach it in my course. Just like the master class.

[00:20:25] Gina: Which makes sense, because you would want kind of where it was going to be cleared.

[00:20:30] Roxanne: So you go from like closer, almost, to further out.

[00:20:33] Leah: Yep

[00:20:34] Gina: Okay. Well, I know what I’m gonna do tonight when I go home.

[00:20:37] Roxanne: I know!

[00:20:38] Gina: Like podcast over. We have to go dry brush.

[00:20:40] Roxanne: Yeah.

[00:20:41] Gina: I’ve got a few. I have a bigger dry brush. You tagged this other company that had like more handheld ones that I have as well. So I’m going to be doing a lot of experimenting and actually open up that manual.

[00:20:55] Roxanne: I think I just got one from primarily Pure that was like a circle. Is that like the dry brush?

[00:21:00] Leah: Oh, yeah, they’re great. There’s so many different shapes and sizes and you’ll replace them periodically, too.

[00:21:08] Leah: And I mean, if you keep them in like a clean, dry place, they won’t get gross, but some people keep, some people like to wet brush, and they’ll keep them in their shower, or they’ll keep them under their sink. Just keep them somewhere, clean!

[00:21:24] Roxanne: Could you, is it like exfoliating the skin as well?

[00:21:27] Leah: Absolutely.

[00:21:28] Roxanne: I think, when you’re doing it.

[00:21:30] Gina: Yeah. It could.

[00:21:31] Roxanne: Which is probably also, it’s like a double whammy. Exfoliate and lymphatic drain.

[00:21:37] Leah: Our skin is our largest detox organ.

[00:21:39] Gina: So would it be the same technique with a Gua Sha tool as well? Or is it like longer strokes? Or what’s the difference between the two, like the dry brushing and the stone?

[00:21:51] Leah: So there’s no, there’s no oil when we’re dry brushing, right? It’s just brush to skin. But when we’re using a Gua Sha stone, we’re going to need a little bit of oil so that we can create a little slide, like a little slide and glide on the surface of the skin. So think more if you’re, brushing your skin, that’s great. But Gua Sha is almost more like squeegeeing the floor. So it is more like long, pulling, strokes.

[00:22:22] Roxanne: Long pulls.

[00:22:23] Leah: Yeah. But you could still do The Big Six and open everything up first.

[00:22:28] Gina: Okay. So would you, could you do both? Or is it kind of like a pick one at a time?

[00:22:34] Leah: I mean, you could do both. Sure. But I like to sort of disperse my little lymphatic self care snacks throughout the week. So, I try to switch it up a little bit.

[00:22:46] Gina: Okay.

[00:22:47] Leah: Cause people are busy, right?

[00:22:48] Gina: Yeah.

[00:22:49] Roxanne: Who has an hour to do all of this? I feel like I would take a really long time to do all of this.

[00:22:56] Gina: Okay, so during pregnancy, if you’ve got swelling, address The Big Six in a specific order, and then start closer to…

[00:23:06] Roxanne: And then work your way out.

[00:23:07] Gina: …the areas that you’re trying to direct it to, and move away to help with the swelling for comfort. And then would all of this also kind of apply to like breastfeeding and like supporting like breast health as well? Because for me, postpartum, I haven’t had too many issues with it, I know Roxanne’s had more than me, not to point out your flaws, but clogged ducks.

[00:23:29] Roxanne: I was like, where are you going? What is wrong? What do I have?!

[00:23:33] Gina: Like clogged ducks and stuff are the worst. And, I didn’t know if like lymphatic massage can help with that as well.

[00:23:41] Roxanne: Or if there’s like specific techniques, cause I know that’s one of the recommendations for if you have mastitis or clogged ducts, is like lymphatic drainage massage in that area to kind of help with the drainage to decrease the congestion, as they say, in the guidelines.

[00:24:00] Roxanne: But I don’t… I always say, “Yeah, lymphatic massage is really beneficial if you have mastitis or clogged ducts!” And then people are like, “Well, what do I do?!” And I’m like, “I don’t know what that means, so. Sorry.”

[00:24:13] Gina: I’m just going to throw out the buzz word.

[00:24:15] Roxanne: Yeah, well, that’s what it says, like literally in the guidelines, lymphatic drainage massage. And like an IBCLC might know what that means, but I am not an expert in that field. So I usually just say, “These people have videos!”

[00:24:29] Leah: Totally. Yeah. It’s really helpful. Really helpful. And it’s awesome for like prevention, too, you know? I think if we were to mobilize our breast tissue more, doing massage and lymphatic drainage, that would just kind of help keep things moving and grooving because all that breast tissue drains to the armpits.

[00:24:50] Leah: So, one of the recommendations for self lymphatic drainage for the breast, it’s going to be to open the collarbones, right? We gotta, change that pressure. And then we want to activate the lymph node clusters in the armpits. And so I tell people take their entire hand and put it over their armpit. It’s like melting a piece of cheese. You just want to melt a piece of cheese. Use your whole hand. And then do some little circular motions in the armpit on the side that you want to work. You can do both sides, but let’s just say you were targeting one side, you can just start with that one side.

[00:25:27] Leah: And so what you’re doing by touching your lymph nodes is just, you know, rubbing them. It’s like preparing them to receive fluid. So you get them all stimulated and then they’re ready to rock. And then you can move down to the breast tissue. So the breast, the way that the lymphatic system drains in the breast tissue, it’s almost like a flower. Think of all these little tiny rivers that are flowing out in every direction, almost like a firework. And they’re just draining from the nipple outward and kind of making their way either towards the armpit, or towards some lymph nodes along the sternum. So, there’s almost like a little roof of your house, divide your breast in half. There’s the roof. So when rain falls on a roof, it either drains to one side or it falls to the other. So that’s kind of how you can direct that fluid, just sort of like understanding how it flows in the breast.

[00:26:29] Leah: And what you would do is just, sort of work in like a, little pumping motion from the nipple towards the armpit, or from the nipple towards the sternum. And you’re just doing these little pumps. It’s great. You don’t need any oil. I mean, you could use oil for massage, but for lymphatic drainage, specifically, we don’t lubricate the skin because we’re really working with the skin, not on the skin, if that makes sense. We’re really trying to, we’re trying to move it and stretch it and manipulate it to allow the openings of the lymphatic vessels, the lymphatic capillaries, to receive fluid.

[00:27:09] Roxanne: And so it’s like a gentle pressure?

[00:27:11] Leah: It is. Yeah.

[00:27:12] Roxanne: And like, how much pressure are you like putting?

[00:27:15] Leah: It should feel therapeutic and just getting a good stretch on the skin. As much pressure as it takes to really mobilize it. And you know, you can, you’ll see your breast moving as you’re doing it. Otherwise it might be a little too light.

[00:27:31] Gina: Yeah. Okay!

[00:27:32] Roxanne: So it could be too much, but it also could be too little.

[00:27:35] Leah: Yeah, well, I think too much would be painful, right? So somewhere in the middle.

[00:27:43] Gina: Yeah, I guess that’s a, “if it hurts, it’s too much.”

[00:27:47] Roxanne: So I actually have a friend who is really into lymphatic massage. She like just recently started into it. And one of the things that she would do- so she also teaches like barre classes and like Pilates, so like people’s arms are up in the air a lot- and she’s I just look at people’s armpits all day to be like, “Oh, they need some lymphatic drainage.” Is that like a thing? Is that like a legitimate thing? Where if you lift your arms up, if you don’t have this like indent in your armpit, almost, you probably need some drainage.

[00:28:19] Leah: It can be an indication, yeah. I mean, we don’t want to judge the shape of our armpit as an indication of our overall lymphatic health. But yeah, it can mean that there’s a little bit of backlog there that maybe it’s not draining as efficiently as it could. I think a lot of that stems from the fact that we’re not moving our arms as often as we should, right? We do a lot of work in front of us with the computers, and my massage work even is like down in front of me, and I’m not like moving my arms or hanging from things as often as I probably should. And so, I find that nutritious, muscle activation of the shoulder girdle that needs to happen is, not necessarily happening for most of us.

[00:29:15] Leah: But, it can be hormonal too, or it can be, an indication that our detox organs need a little bit of support. Maybe our liver isn’t functioning as optimally as it should be, which can mean that the things that are supposed to be eliminated from our body are actually just getting repurposed or recycled in our lymphatic fluid. And that’s where things kind of, they start to get, they start to accumulate, right? We want crystal clear Bahama lymphatic fluid water, because it’s mostly water, so, it can get a little stagnant and boggy, if we’re not able to eliminate things through our feces and urine and sweat, and, just natural detoxification.

[00:30:00] Gina: So for the pregnancy swelling, we talked about like specific movements that somebody can do, like doing calf raises, deep belly breathing, going for walks. Are there specific movements that you would also recommend for somebody’s upper body to help with that breast tissue drainage?

[00:30:18] Roxanne: Oh, yeah!

[00:30:18] Leah: Yes! I love this one. Okay. So this one’s called Paint the Globe. Do you guys want to do it together?

[00:30:25] Gina: Yes. 100%.

[00:30:27] Roxanne: Yeah.

[00:30:27] Gina: We’ve been massaging ourselves.

[00:30:29] Roxanne: I know. I’m just over here massaging my boobs. “Oh, that’s what I need to do!”

[00:30:34] Leah: So, Paint the Globe, basically I teach this one to all my clients because our shoulder joint is like the most versatile in the body, right? So there’s literally thousands of different positions that it could be in. And I find that if you just sort of explore that with Paint the Globe, you’ll get a lot of cool muscle activation and drainage there.

[00:31:02] Leah: So you just pretend that you’re in like an invisible snow globe from the waist up, and then you take your hand is going to be your paint brush.

[00:31:10] Gina: Okay, I’m gonna move my mic a little.

[00:31:12] Leah: So you could just paint around to the equipment, you know.

[00:31:15] Leah: So you just take your hand and basically what you’re doing is you’re just pretending like you’re painting the inside of your snow globe and you just want to try to paint the entire surface. The whole surface, you’re never going to be able to paint directly behind you, but you try to cover…

[00:31:35] Gina: I’m gonna try!

[00:31:37] Leah: You cover as much surface area as you can, and then you switch sides and do the other side.

[00:31:44] Gina: Okay. That’s actually like pretty, pretty simple.

[00:31:47] Leah: It’s really simple. But isn’t that what’s interesting about the body? Right? It’s like some of the most simple things are the most impactful.

[00:32:01] Roxanne: Yeah.

[00:32:03] Gina: Cool.

[00:32:04] Leah: Yeah.

[00:32:04] Gina: I like it.

[00:32:04] Roxanne: Cool.

[00:32:05] Gina: You know what I’m going to be doing in about a month when I have a baby.

[00:32:09] Roxanne: I know. I feel like this would be so helpful. Like that immediate postpartum period.

[00:32:13] Gina: Yeah. Well, you just get stuck in positions too, like in the early postpartum everything’s hunched over, holding baby.

[00:32:22] Gina: Are you justat a party? Roxanne’s at a rave now.

[00:32:25] Roxanne: No, it feels really nice on my shoulder.

[00:32:30] Gina: But just adding in that little bit of movement in addition to like some drainage.

[00:32:35] Gina: So would you, could you dry brush your breasts as well? I’m assuming the answer is yes.

[00:32:40] Leah: Absolutely.

[00:32:41] Gina: I guess it would depend on the brush.

[00:32:43] Roxanne: Smaller brush.

[00:32:44] Leah: Yeah. You can.

[00:32:46] Roxanne: So do you go into the armpit? Like, when you come up?

[00:32:50] Leah: You can. I mean, I feel like the skin is a little bit more sensitive, right? Because it’s not rubbing up against our clothing as much, like it just doesn’t get as much sensory input.

[00:32:59] Roxanne: I know, it like tickles.

[00:33:02] Leah: It depends on like how rough your dry brush is.

[00:33:06] Leah: I have a dry brush, well actually it’s a lymphatic brush, and the lymphatic brush is like super soft and, it actually is almost like it’s contoured, like the brush is contoured. So it’s almost perfect for breast tissue. But yes, you can brush into your armpit, but you could also just stop right on the corner and that would be fine too.

[00:33:30] Gina: I think I have the one that you’re referring to that has the contour, the bristles are much softer compared to the Primally Pure one that is that was a little rough.

[00:33:40] Roxanne: The thought of that on my breast tissue, I was like, I don’t know.

[00:33:42] Gina: I have one that’s like the bristles are very soft, very. I’m very excited. I’m going to be dry brushing my whole body tonight.

[00:33:49] Leah: Yes! Just follow along with that video. I got you!

[00:33:53] Gina: So how often should someone be thinking about their lymph system and doing self care, doing like deliberate things to support lymphatic drainage?

[00:34:04] Leah: I mean, my partially biased answer would be every day, but only because it’s so important and like it has such intimate ties to our neurological health, our gastrointestinal health, our hormone health. It’s just, it’s connected to every other major system in the body. So I think that when we’re doing a lot of foundational health things, we’re also taking care of our lymphatic system, but it’s helpful to, to acknowledge that we have one, acknowledge that the things that we do for it are just going to check so many boxes for us and help with so many different things that I think that’s worth like crossing our mind once a day.

[00:34:53] Gina: I’ve been trying to like, think about it. I think I just didn’t have a clear understanding.

[00:34:57] Gina: It feels very like, conceptual to me because I can’t like, see it.

[00:35:01] Roxanne: Oh, yeah.

[00:35:03] Gina: But my muscles, I’m like, I could see, I could massage my muscles or I could work them out. I have a physical, or visual, feedback of yes, that was doing things.

[00:35:14] Roxanne: But I feel like you probably will still have a physical response to lymphatic drainage massage, like you…. It’s nolikeas oh, yeah, my muscle is lemoreelaxed, but I feel like you still feel it within your body, probably.

[00:35:27] Gina: Well, I’ve seen it when people do it on like their face and like one side will be so much less like puffy than the other after doing it.

[00:35:35] Roxanne: So nasal congestion during pregnancy. Gina had this issue a lot. Is that something that you can do with lymphatic drainage on the face to help with that like nasal congestion? Because it’s not due to that you actually are congested with like mucus and snot. It’s just like swelling from the increased fluid in your body during pregnancy that’s causing a lot of like congestion and swelling to occur in your face.

[00:36:02] Roxanne: And so like even people will say “oh pregnancy face,” like your “pregnancy glow,” which like someone told me this when I was pregnant. I was like, “what do you mean?” They’re like, “your face is like glowing and red.”

[00:36:13] Gina: “And very puffy.”

[00:36:14] Roxanne: “But beautiful!”. And I was like, “No, what are you, saying?” And they’re like, “Your face looks puffier, but it looks like beautiful.” And I’m just like, “So you think my face looks fat? Thanks.” But that’s like a common thing. Like people will post pictures of them outside of pregnancy and then like them in their third trimester. And they’re just like, “What happened to me?” But that’s a very common thing is that your face swells. But is there something you can do like lymphatic drainage on your face to help with that? Cause Gina couldn’t breathe for like a good couple months cause she was so like congested.

[00:36:48] Leah: I think so many people deal with congestion in the head and neck and they notice it because they can, see it, right? They can see it in their hands, they can see it in their feet and their face. So kind of going back to that one third of the lymph nodes being in the head and neck, we can definitely do lymphatic drainage and kind of get all of that flowing. And it’s really soothing too because we just have so many nerve endings in our face, it’s just, it really shifts you into a very relaxed state. I’ve got some tutorials, like some full length tutorials on face drainage specifically in a story highlight on the gram.

[00:37:34] Roxanne: Oh yeah, we’ll have to link that. But is it like, because I know some people are like, you’re going, do you go like from the nose out? Or is it a similar where like you’re going towards those lymph nodes, which I know there’s major ones like within the neck and near the ears?

[00:37:52] Leah: Let me get my little dude here. Here he is!

[00:37:58] Roxanne: Oh yeah.

[00:38:00] Leah: So here’s like a little model of the lymph nodes in the face. So if you draw that invisible line down the midline. That’s like the roof of the house. So everything’s going to fall from one side or the other. And so, yeah, you would, you would kind of target the collarbones, target the sides of the neck, just below the ear. There’s a couple of major chains of lymph node clusters here. We’ve got some underneath the jaw, can you see that? Just below the jaw that kind of drain the teeth and the lips and the tongue and we’ve got two lymph nodes on either side of our nose as well, the nasolabial lymph nodes.

[00:38:45] Leah: So for sinus congestion, specifically, something that you can do is just take your fingers and just place them on either side of your nose, kind of where your smile lines start, you know, your cheeks start. And you can just apply some nice gentle pressure there and take some nice deep breaths through your nose.

[00:39:10] Leah: It feels nice and it, there’s some little sinus cavities under there as well. So you’re kind of targeting those as well and helping those drain and just rubbing that area when you’re feeling congested is really great. It doesn’t have to take a super long time. It can just be little simple things like that, if you know, if you’re pressing in the right places.

[00:39:33] Roxanne: I feel like that’s something intuitively that I would do, too, when I was congested. If I felt congested, I would just like press here intuitively, to be like, “Oh, it feels better when I press here.” Well, now, scientifically, it’s, it is better.

[00:39:49] Roxanne: But we would have, we had this one doctor, he’s a doctor of osteopathic medicine. He was a resident. People would come in with, headaches from congestion, from just not being able to breathe. And he would do this maneuver where he would place his hands on the sides of the nose and just lift up. And they would leave like a minute later being like, “I am amazed, you’re an amazing person. How? What magic did you do?” And I wonder if it’s, it’s probably a little bit of osteopathic medicine, but it’s like those lymph nodes he just got moving.

[00:40:21] Leah: Yeah. Yeah. It feels good.

[00:40:24] Gina: Well, it sounds like there’s a lot of really simple things that we can do to help support the lymph system during pregnancy, to support breastfeeding, to one, kind of combat some of those common symptoms that we’re having, and they seem very reasonable and easy to do. Just moving our

bodies, like going for walks, also moving the shoulders postpartum can be helpful, the compression socks, and then knowing where to direct the lymph, I think is really beneficial as well.

[00:40:54] Gina: So we’re going to tag all of your stuff down in the show notes for those of you that are listening so that you can go watch Leah’s page to figure out where to direct these different things. Check out her online resources. The dry brushing tutorial I think is very helpful. So where else can our listeners find you? So they can find you on Instagram?

[00:41:18] Leah: Yeah, I’m also on TikTok and YouTube as Lymph Love Club. I’m lymph loving it everywhere, a little bit everywhere. And, and my website, yeah, lymphloveclub.com.

[00:41:32] Gina: Awesome. And you’re in Austin, Texas. So if people want in person support and you happen to live there, check her out there as well. Do you have any last bits of advice for anybody that’s wanting to be more intentional about supporting their lymph system.

[00:41:47] Gina: Do you have some key tips that you’re like, “You must do these things if you want to survive.”

[00:41:54] Roxanne: Or your like beginner tips to dive into it?

[00:42:00] Leah: Beginner tips. I feel like starting with a good foundation of just doing a little deep dive, doing some research, checking it out so you kind of know where those lymph nodes are and what they look like and what they do.

[00:42:15] Leah: It’s all really helpful to understand the little self care practices that you are doing and like why you’re doing them and why they’re so important. Education is, it’s such a big part because we can apply that knowledge to our bodies and just through all phases of our lives, whether it’s, you know, before pregnancy, after. All of it! Education is the foundation.

[00:42:40] Gina: Yeah, I think it’s lifelong. It’s not exclusive to this phase of life by any means.

[00:42:46] Roxanne: Like you could do, my husband probably needs to do it.

[00:42:49] Leah: We all need it.

[00:42:50] Gina: Well, thank you so much Leah for coming on the podcast and sharing your wisdom on how to support your lymph system during your

pregnancy and that early postpartum, and just life in general. And definitely check out her website, check out her Instagram page. She’s got tons of content out there. I’m like constantly learning things and going in my bathroom and trying all these different techniques that I’m learning. So thank you again for coming onto the podcast.

[00:43:15] Leah: Oh, thanks so much for having me!

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[00:44:11] Gina: Thanks so much for listening to this episode. Hopefully you learned a ton like Roxanne and I did about what you can do to help enhance your self care with some easy lymphatic drainage techniques. Roxanne and I were doing them throughout the entire episode. If you’re watching the YouTube video, you’ll see us like massaging our collarbones, our armpits, and doing all our arm circles and stuff.

[00:44:33] Gina: So when it comes to lymphatic drainage and helping our lymph system move, the first thing is just movement. Daily movement in general can be so beneficial to supporting your pregnancy and in the postpartum. Obviously, being mindful of the type of movement that we’re doing for each phase of life.

[00:44:47] Gina: And so if you want more support with movement during your pregnancy and your postpartum, we do have some fitness programs that guide you day by day. So our prenatal fitness programs are going to be offered in our strength based program, which is in an app. So lists of exercise with short demo videos. Or we have the full length workout videos that you follow and work out with at the same time. So it depends on whether you like to work out self paced, if you like to work out self paced in the gym setting strength programs can be a great option. If you prefer to follow a video, On Demand is going to be a great option. Both programs are gonna include strength workouts in addition to pelvic

stability exercises, birth preparation, so we have those pelvic opening, pelvic floor release, and then when you’re in the third trimester, the programs include birth partner workouts as well.

[00:45:28] Gina: Postpartum, we also have daily workouts to help support you recover after birth. And so one, we have our free early postpartum recovery course that you can do to kind of increase that movement in the early days, which is very gentle, very mindful. We’re not like trying to get PRs in our deadlift or go for a 5k run by any means. We’re like doing some mobility. Breathing. But we’re still moving that lymph system to help support our healing to help with that inflammation after birth as well. Starting on weeks 4 to 10, we have our postpartum return to fitness programs. And so depending on what type of sport you’re trying to get back into, maybe it’s general fitness, maybe it’s running, maybe it’s CrossFit, we do have programs to help support you return to fitness after birth.

[00:46:11] Gina: So you can check out all of our fitness programs on our website at mamastefit.com/fitnessprograms and use code STORY10 to get 10 percent off any of our online offerings. All of our fitness programs can be bundled with education courses specific to each time frame as well. And the good news is if you do the bundles or you do one time payments you get lifetime access to those programs. So you can use it for this pregnancy, the next pregnancy, this postpartum next postpartum. We have a lot of repeat athletes, which is really cool. They’ll email us and be like, “This is my third time going through the program,” like, “give me my access back!” And so we’re happy to support you during this journey and in future ones as well.

[00:46:47] Roxanne: This podcast is sponsored by Needed, a nutrition company focused on the perinatal timeframe that both Gina and I have utilized during our pregnancies, postpartums, preconceptions, even our husbands and kids will utilize some of their products. And you can check them out at thisisneeded.com and use code MAMASTEPOD to get 20 percent off your first order.