The MamasteFit Podcast Episode 127 – Debunking Myths & Understanding Chiropractic Care with Dr. Savannah Gardner

Gina: Welcome to The MamasteFit Podcast. In this episode, we actually have a guest here in our studio, Savannah, who is a local chiropractor to us. And so we’re going to be talking all about what are the benefits of chiropractic care? Is it made up? Is she a quack? We’re going to discover that in this episode.

Welcome to The MamasteFit Podcast. If you’ve been wondering, is chiropractic care fake? We’re going to discover that today with Dr. Savannah. She is a local chiropractor to us, and I’m really excited to debunk what does a chiropractor even do?

Savannah: Yeah.

Gina: Do you pop all my joints back in place? Do I need to hear a pop for success? And we’re going to break that down.

Roxanne and I have both utilized chiropractic care during our pregnancies into the postpartum. Her kids have utilized it, so it’s something that we have personally found benefit from. But I think there’s a lot of misinformation on what a chiropractor does. I think there’s also a lot of negative information out there about how it’s- “They’re all quacks. There’s no reason to EVER see one.”

Roxanne: “They’re not real doctors.”

Savannah: “Witch doctors!”

Gina: Like, “You should never see a chiropractor.” So we’re going to break that down in this episode, ’cause we’re all about helping our listeners know what options are available to them, what resources are available to them, and to know that there is benefit to chiropractic care.

So Savannah, could you just introduce yourself to our listeners? She has been on the podcast before, if you have been a long time listener, you’ll recognize her. But if you can just introduce yourself again.

Savannah: Yeah. Hi, I’m Dr. Savannah Gardner. I am a chiropractor, as mentioned. I own a practice here in Southern Pines called The Movement Foundry.

I’m a certified pediatric chiropractor through the ICPA, I’m also Webster certified for prenatal care. I’m almost done with my perinatal certification through them as well. And then on top of that, I also do a lot with sports and performance. So I’m lucky in this area to be able to work with so many high performing athletes, including my mothers. And I feel like y’all experienced that too- they have such a great gym here that helps support moms. But yeah, I’m really happy to be here and talk about what we’re doing.

This is also a scary topic, to be in my seat, because this profession is obviously near and dear to my heart, but there is a lot of misinformation out there and I think the whole point of being a doctor, the meaning is to teach. And I think a lot of times when we’re trying to put information out there, it’s our responsibility to explain things properly and do our best to do so. So, I’m hoping that will come across today. But, I do think it’s important that we put good information out there, but also give people the ability to trust their judgment and trust what they possibly need, and also understand how to navigate to get to the provider that they need to see for whatever their condition or symptoms that they’re experiencing. So I’m excited to be here!

Gina: So with chiropractic care, I think it’s similar with any other profession, there are good chiropractors and then there are ones that are maybe on the quack side.

Savannah: Yeah.

Gina: I think you’re on the good side.

Savannah: Thank you!

Gina: You’re on the good side. So let’s talk about what does a chiropractor even do? Are you like popping my joints in place? Are you moving my bones, or, like, what? What is a chiropractic adjustment even doing?

Savannah: Yeah, so as chiropractors, we are musculoskeletal specialists. We focus a lot on the nervous system as well- that’s a big buzzword. And I think maybe what we’ll talk about a lot today is the buzzwords that we hear on social media and publications, or whatever else there is out there that people are absorbing. But what we do is we help facilitate movement to the joint. Now, there is that old saying of, “We’re putting the bone back in place,” that has been debunked by research. But I do think there’s a lot of merit in what the physicians or the people that were using that statement we’re trying to get across.

Every joint has a motion. It has a specific primary and a secondary range of motion. So for example, your knee, it flexes and it extends. It either bends or it straightens. Now we do have accessory motions there, so we are also supposed to move laterally. We are supposed to get rotation in the joint, but primarily we should be able to flex and extend, and we have different ligaments and tendons that help resist those accessory motions from going into a large range of motion that we know causes meniscal tears or other injuries that we might expect to see. So it’s important to understand that when we’re looking at joint movement, we’re not necessarily putting a bone back in place, we’re just helping to facilitate the range of motion that it should be able to do itself.

Now, whether it’s stopped moving in that range of motion because of a muscular issue, if it’s a neurologic thing, the nerve isn’t innervating the muscles or the joints to be able to move in that range of motion, that’s our jobs as chiropractors to figure out. But we’re not necessarily moving a bone that’s gone way out of the joint. We’re just helping facilitate a motion that for some reason our body or our brain is not allowing to happen.

So it’s really more about helping a patient move in a better way, but we also have to have the pathology background to understand: is it low back pain or for men, is it prostate cancer? Or for women, is it ovarian cancer or is it a kidney problem? Is it a UTI infection? Or for the neck, is it a heart attack? Is it all these different scary things that we as professionals have to rule out? But after that’s where we get to have fun and just help the patient feel better, get better movement so that they are able to do what they love throughout their daily life without having to be restricted by pain or just lack of range of motion. So we usually work in tandem with other providers to help get that range of motion back. We can use tools like adjustments to help not, I don’t like the word force, but just be that little extra step to get that joint moving better. Because sometimes exercises aren’t enough, but a lot of times they help reinforce what we’ve done with joint range of motion.

Gina: Yeah, I think there’s benefit, too, to the manual therapy too. One, whenever there’s like a little bit of extra movement like reintroduced or we help to improve that joint’s movement, it could change the way that we receive it in our brain.

Savannah: Right.

Gina: Which can maybe decrease the pain that we’re experiencing. And if you are in a lot of pain trying to then go do the exercises that like maybe your PT is prescribing you, it hurts.

Savannah: Yeah.

Gina: And then you don’t want to do them ’cause you’re like, “It hurts to do that.” But if we can change the way that we’re receiving the stimulus, it can then allow us to strengthen around, or to do the exercises. And so I think there’s a lot of benefit to that manual therapy, either with the adjustment or the dry needling or manual, like, massage techniques that I’ve seen you do in your clinic, or you’ve done on me in your clinic. I don’t just watch you perform!

Roxanne: Just watching you in the window.

Gina: I actually have a camera and I’m just watching you at all times. When I visited that time, that’s what I was doing.

So I think there’s a lot of benefit to having these manual therapies to bring someone to a place that maybe they could not get by themselves.

Savannah: Right.

Gina: So that they can be comfortable and then we can add on to it with exercises to then help improve the movement pattern or whatever the underlying issue is.

Could you just talk a little bit about how someone becomes a chiropractor? ‘Cause we were having a conversation before about how sometimes I feel like chiropractors are outside of their scope.

Savannah: Yeah.

Gina: With the kind of information they’re sharing on social media where it’s like, “These are the supplements that you should take,” or, “You should never do any sort of medication, you should only get adjustments and that’s all you need.” And so there seems to be this like overarching like view of what people may think chiropractors are because these really loud people who are chiropractors are pushing themselves out there as these experts in fields that maybe they are not legitimately supposed to be in. But we were talking about how in different states there might be different rules on what a provider can do. And so I think that will really change, like what is appropriate for somebody here in North Carolina, versus what someone maybe in Oregon is doing.

But can we just talk about like how does someone even become a chiropractor?

Savannah: Yeah, so you have to have your four year undergraduate degree to start. So there are those prerequisites, and then from there you apply to chiropractic school, just similar to medical school. And then it’s usually a three and a half to four year training. From there you have all the anatomy- we do the same amount of anatomy as that a medical provider would do. We do radiology, we do different treatment modalities, and that’s usually the biggest difference between an MD versus a DC is philosophy. Chiropractors are usually big physiologists. We want to see that we’re letting the body heal itself rather than providing different chemicals or environmental changes to the body itself. And so that’s where some people get really up in arms about what we should do and we shouldn’t do, and why we should just get adjustments and yada, yada, yada. And at the end of the day, if your provider is telling you that they can solve all your problems, you need to find another provider. I don’t care if they’re a chiropractor, they’re a medical provider, they’re a nurse, a PT, whatever it may be. We cannot simply solve all your problems. We have to be a team. And at the end of the day, the patient is the body and they have to take empowerment into their own hands and be able to take care of themselves. We’re just resources.

But yes, it is a full doctorate program. We do have five, I believe it took five board exams. So yeah, we, do extensive training. It’s just a difference in philosophy and the approach to care. Whereas physicians, in the medical field go on to study chemicals and the way that medicine affects the body, we go on to understand like the manual therapies, how to manipulate joints, and we do obviously a lot of training on adjustments- that’s our favorite modality. But we do have a lot of nutrition education, we have a lot of different passive modality education. Along with radiology, you’ll see some chiropractors use x-rays. But really at the end of the day, when it comes to scope in our field and everyone else’s, we have to learn in school everything that we can do in whatever state we practice in.

If you’re a military chiropractor and you practice on post, you have the access to every state scope. So you have to be able to do all those things and learn them in school. So for example, we were talking about earlier, I did have to do so many prostate exams and so many vaginal exams, and then on top of that we had to learn about birthing and what that might look like because in some states, technically in our scope of practice, we’re able to help do so. Do I deliver babies here in North Carolina? One, that’s not in my scope, no. And two, that’s just not something I really, personally, I believe I’ve had enough training to be able to do. But at the end of the day, we do have to, on paper, do so many practicals to be able to pass our board exams.

So from a basic standpoint, for schooling, it’s that undergraduate degree and a doctorate. So we do have that extensive postgraduate training. But from there, that’s just the baseline and whatever your physician goes on to train in next- for example, my certification in pediatric care, those are hundreds and hundreds of hours of continuing education to be better provider, or to be certified in something, or to be a fellow of whatever that may be. So one thing that I recommend when people are looking for chiropractors or different medical providers is to go look at those certifications to go look at the credibility as well. And just like when we look at research papers, like who’s funding it, where is the training there and what’s the credibility there?

Gina: Absolutely. I really love how what you said about if one person is saying that they could solve all of your problems, yeah, they’re probably not a good person for you and they’re, probably going to be implementing a lot of fear-based tactics to scare you from seeking care from your primary care provider.

Savannah: Right.

Gina: Or seeking care from these other people by convincing you that they’re the only one and all these other people are bad.

Roxanne: Yeah.

Gina: And they’re trying to push you into different things. ‘Cause even for me as like a doula and as a fitness trainer, like there are other things that my, like, clients could utilize to enhance their prenatal experience. And so it’s okay if the only thing that they do is not my prenatal fitness program. If they also are working with a pelvic floor PT and they’re getting adjustments and they’re communicating with their provider on like medical things that they’re experiencing- like we’re all like this big team supporting this like singular person. And when we recognize that we are a team, it helps to really enhance their experience. And it’s when we start fighting with one another and thinking like, “No, I’m the only one that knows what’s best for you,” that we really can deteriorate their experience.

And we see that in a hospital setting too, like when we’re supporting birth. If the doula is very anti medical and anti hospital, then it really can deteriorate the patient’s experience because now they’re in the middle of this like conflict between what the doula thinks is best, versus what their medical team is recommending. And vice versa! If the medical team is really anti, like how dare you have an opinion on your experience, it really just deteriorates the patient’s experience, even if they have these additional people to help support them.

And so I completely agree that if somebody is saying that they can solve all of your problems, that you don’t need to invest your time or your money in anybody else, that you shouldn’t see them, you should only see me.

Savannah: Run!

Gina: That is a huge….

Savannah: Red flag!

Gina: Huge red flag to me.

Savannah: We’re talking about like research too, so like even whether it’s a medical provider or a chiropractor or a DO, we all operate around evidence-based, that’s our goal- we want to provide the best care for a patient. But if your provider is not patient centered that’s concerning. That’s another red flag. We’re here to support the patient. We’re not here to talk about how great I am, how smart I am, what I’ve learned, because there is so much to learn out there. And realistically, the patient nowadays, they have access to any information they want to find. So if you want to find something, Google’s great.

But when we talk about evidence-based, there’s three pillars there. There’s what the literature says, what we’ve put on paper that we know works. There’s the physician’s knowledge- what we’ve learned from our expertise, what we’re supposed to be able to provide to the patient as a resource. And then there’s patient preference. So going back to that patient-centered care in a birthing situation, if they don’t feel heard, the doula is the one speaking up the most, or the OB is speaking up the most, or the midwife, where are we finding those other two pillars? What’s the literature say? What are we working on? What’s being, what we like to say, “evidence-adjusted” because our field is still only 200 years old, so we’re still building there too. But what is everything working together to say for that final outcome, that final decision, and that includes what the patient wants and needs, but also, the clinician’s information. But again, we have to fall back on that evidence and what the literature says as well. So I don’t like to say necessarily like evidence-based. I think we’re evidence-adjusted. We’re trying to get there and the more experience we get, the more that we take the time as professionals to put it down on paper, the better. But realistically, at the end of the day, the patient, that’s the outcome we’re looking for. What’s successful for them and their success might look different for someone else that we’re working with.

So we as clinicians have to put our like ego down a little bit and do what’s best for them. Because we’re not working with numbers, we’re not accountants, we’re not crunching numbers in a spreadsheet- like we’re working on a human being. And not only do their feelings matter, but also their physiology. And then again, what’s safe. So that’s, when we’re looking at who to work with, if you don’t feel supported and they’re not working well with others, and that might not be quote a team. And there is times that we have to say, “Hey, this is what I know, this is what I’ve seen work,” but we have to come to a conclusion together that supports the patient.

Gina: Absolutely. And with evidence-based care and, “Go show me the study,” or, “show me the paper,” like, research papers, one, someone has to fund that research.

Savannah: Exactly. That’s why I said that a minute ago!

Gina: And so it has to be something that somebody cared about studying and making money off of. For us specifically as women, like women’s healthcare is not well researched. And so if we’re waiting for somebody to come up with a paper to tell me that this modality is beneficial for me as a woman during my pregnancy, or beneficial for my children, I’m going to be waiting a really long time.

Savannah: Yeah.

Gina: And so yes, the literature is important, but also what are you as a provider seeing works from your experience? And then also what is the feedback from your client? Because even for me as a fitness trainer, certain exercises work really well for a good number of people, and then certain ones work better for other people. And so I need to be able to not only wait for a research paper to tell me that people who have pelvic pain should do these exercises or this is why they have pelvic pain. Like I can see it based on my experience.

Savannah: Yeah.

Gina: And working with these clients. And then based on what is working, what feels good for them in their bodies, and then start making decisions and recommendations from that. And I’m sure it’s similar for you as a chiropractor.

Savannah: Oh my gosh, yeah.

Gina: You don’t have to wait for the literature.

Roxanne: Yeah.

Gina: Because otherwise then what was the point of you? Like, you’re a professional and you’re educated enough to be able to draw conclusions from your personal experience. And like you said, as the consumer or as the patient and the client, I am, we can also assume that I’m educated and I could make conclusions based on information that I find. And so sometimes I think there’s a little bit of, where maybe that teeters too hard on all, “Our consumers are just dumb and they need us to hold their hand and tell ’em. How dare you try to do your own research. Show me the study that you did!” Or, “Show me the study you paid for and peer reviewed.” I’m like, “I can gather information.”

But then also it’s, yeah, not everything that you say is correct. Our patients have the opportunity to make conclusions on their own, but they should still be working with our team to figure out, okay, what is your experience and how can I apply that to the information that I’ve been gathering, and how can we apply that to the literature that maybe you can read better than I can to help make me have a better experience?

Savannah: I think that’s a great conversation in the chiropractic field. That’s something that we often battle a lot, especially if you look on Instagram comments, like the trolls come out of the woodwork. “There’s no research, there’s no literature.” And respectfully, I just said it, we’ve only been in practice 200 years and medical physicians go through the same thing as they’re implementing new surgeries or medications or new techniques. So yes, it’s important to have the literature, but give us a second. We’re still writing it. And in our field with what all we do, being in pregnancy, nobody wants to study a pregnant woman. The, risks are too scary. And same with pediatrics. people come outta the work woodworks all the time for pediatric chiropractic care. Yes, I understand that we have to be incredibly safe and I promise you, we are. When I’m adjusting a newborn baby, it’s never more than me pushing on my eye with it closed, like it’s very sensitive and gentle and neurologically based. But we also have to use our clinician experience and know that this has worked for another patient, let’s try and implement it here because they have the same symptoms or the same presentation. So it’s our job to be good diagnosticians. And be able to implement what treatment we’ve seen experience wise in the past if we don’t have the literature yet, but we need to also take the time to write it, which we’re working on.

So yeah, I think it’s a kind of checks and balances. And it’s important to make sure that we’re doing the right thing and keeping ourselves in balance, but we also have to understand that science is ever changing and that’s why we have to stay on top of our continuing education. And thank goodness for you guys and how much information you guys put out there, because that’s really helping move the page forward for our profession and for our patients and for our clients. We’re growing so quickly in the prenatal and pediatric field because information’s finally coming out, but we are still waiting on that research to happen. So we do unfortunately have to go back on some of our clinician experience and patient experiences. But I love that about my clientele, when I see like on Facebook posts or whatever, moms will be on there, someone’s talking about their baby being colicky and the mom’s like, “Oh, I took mine to the chiropractor and it changed their life.” They’re not just saying that to sell you on it, it really might have. So maybe going off of someone’s experience, being enough information to at least try it or to do your own research. Yeah, I think people can do a little bit better job of presenting that information, but I think people are so emotionally driven because this is a really emotional time in their lives and things might have helped them or not helped them either. And so having an open ear and keeping your options open is a good place to start. But then, yeah, talk to your friends, see what’s worked for them, see what hasn’t worked for them. And also maybe be the research yourself- see, do your own, try it, give it a whirl. You never know. But I can promise you from a clinician experience, we have this joke in pediatric chiropractic of expecting miracles because we quote “see them all the time,” because there isn’t the literature yet there. It’s just, finding that balance of using your mom, intuition, your mom gut, your dad gut, that’s a thing too, but knowing in your heart and in your mind, based on the people that you choose to trust, that the information that’s out there and the information that you choose to receive, and then the decisions you make based on that is good for you or your child or whoever else you’re trying to support, so.

Gina: Absolutely.

Savannah: I think it’s just finding that good team, and luckily we’ve got a great one here in Moore County.

Roxanne: Yeah. But even like evidence-based practice, like to this day, how long does it even take evidence to be implemented into practice?

So even the evidence that’s currently there that people know, like certain things based off evidence is either decreasing or increasing risks, like, they’re still doing the thing that they were doing 20 years ago. So like evidence-based practice isn’t even a thing for some providers. So I don’t think that, like… the lack of evidence doesn’t mean that you’re like practicing magic or woo things.

Savannah: Yeah.

Roxanne: Like it’s still a medicine in a way because it’s things that you were able to experience and saw the benefits. I definitely will praise be all chiropractics for saving my children. I felt like they were like new babies before and after, to include myself- my pubic bone pain was like debilitating and Dr. Ring fixed me in a day.

Savannah: Amazing.

Roxanne: So like I think that just because the evidence isn’t there, it isn’t diminishing the like realistic and like amazing benefits of chiropractic care, but I feel It’s just so new- which it sounds crazy ’cause 200 years is like a really long ass time.

Savannah: Yeah.

Roxanne: Two hundred years is a long ass time.

Gina: I mean, when it takes like 20 to 30 years for new research to be pushed out in governing bodies. If we think about just like prenatal vitamin recommendations, like there’s newer research that demonstrates like certain levels should be higher for certain supplements versus others.

Roxanne: Yeah.

Gina: And that has not changed in like ACOG’s guidance, even though the evidence is out there.

Roxanne: Yeah.

Gina: And so it takes a long time for this new evidence to make it to the people that are making these recommendations. And so it’s important to note, “Yeah, like I did this to somebody and it made them feel a lot better.”

Savannah: Yeah.

Gina: “They feel good in their body.” Or, “I went and got this adjustment and now I feel better.”

So one of the big things for me during my own pregnancies- just to make this about myself- was I usually have…

Roxanne: It’s her podcast!

Gina: It is my podcast that I share with Roxanne.

Roxanne: The Gina Conley Podcast.

Gina: The Gina’s MamasteFit Podcast.

So I usually have more SI joint pain during my pregnancies, and I will have also like more round ligament pain. And that has been something that I found super helpful to see chiropractic care for. So I don’t need a study to tell me that I feel better in my body- and maybe there are studies out there that I am just like not aware of, I don’t specifically look up chiropractic papers so they could exist. But for me, whatever the adjustment is helps to reset my pain reception of it and what sensation I feel to where I can then go and do exercise to help strengthen. And so there’s, it’s a lot of like combining different modalities together to improve my overall experience.

Savannah: Collaborative care.

Gina: And so I would do an adjustment, I would feel much better, and it was almost like a temporary relief, which was enough time for me to then go and do my exercises.

Savannah: Which is the key.

Gina: Yeah, that I got from PT. If I only did chiropractic care though, I think that I would be in, I would just return to being in pain and then need another adjustment, and then I would get some temporary relief and then go back and need another adjustment.

I am on with you where it’s not just one and nothing else. It’s usually like a combination of different things. So I would get my adjustment, I would do my exercises, and usually that was like enough for me. And then as pregnancy progresses, oh, things have shifted in my body, let’s reset this, get another adjustment. Maybe we release a little bit more of my uterine ligaments and then do my exercises and I feel better again. Okay, now a month has passed, things have really shifted- babies keep growing! And so it would just be that same pattern, but it would improve my quality of life, I would not be in pain, which was like the key thing. And then I can then add on the strengthening movements to help sustain that like good feeling that I had, that I got from my PT, that I was doing from our fitness programs. And so I definitely think that chiropractic care was beneficial for me personally during my pregnancy, regardless of how people may believe it to be like woo or whatever, like I felt better.

Savannah: Good! How dare you feel better.

Gina: I don’t need even a paper to tell me that I feel better in my body! And it brought me to a point where I can then do more to keep myself feeling good. And so it was like a collaborative, like you were saying, care. I also found that for my babies, after they were born, they all got smooshed as they came out just through my birth canal…

Roxanne: Their fricking bones are still moving around!

Gina: …which is only so large. And so with my oldest, we had, that was my longest labor and my longest push and the most interventions. And she was like just not happy when she was born, she had a really hard time getting a good latch, like I was in pain, she was pissed off. And then we went and got an adjustment where they did a internal one in her mouth and she was like, “WAAAAAAAH!” and they did the adjustment and she instantly stop crying. And I was like, “I believe!”

Savannah: That’s usually the experience people have!

Gina: And it made so much sense where I was like, yeah, you just got crammed through this tiny hole.

Roxanne: Yeah.

Gina: Like you probably… I mean, if I woke up and I have a crook in my neck, I’m like, “Ugh!” like all day. I couldn’t imagine okay, now I got- I guess I could imagine, it happened to me at some point in my life, but it was a long time ago, 37 years ago- but I’m like, I would imagine, yeah, if you, your bones were a little bit funky, to help reposition them would then help you reset like the stimulus that you’re receiving or interpret it differently, to where then you can get a better latch. And then once you get that better latch, that’s helping to improve your facial bone structure.

Savannah: Yeah. Pain makes us do a lot of things. It’s emotional, it’s physical, there’s so many different components to it. And so if we’re talking about a pregnant woman, people come in a little bit more often- at least I recommend if they can afford it and they, see benefit of it, that they do come in a little bit more frequently during their pregnancy because they are moving so much and things are shifting literally every day.

So if we can get you out of pain, that’s going to help you move better, work out better, feel better, move through life better, also emotionally be happier. So yeah, there’s a lot of benefit from the pain relief. But we know with pain, like antalgic positioning, if it hurts to do a lunge because of your pubic bone, then you’re going to avoid, your brain’s going to make you, whether you realize it or not, avoid lunging at all costs. How is that going to affect babies’ positioning when it comes to actually laboring and delivering?

Roxanne: Yeah.

Savannah: Like how can that affect the outcome of your birth and all that? So it’s not necessarily that it, that one adjustment might just change your birth, but it’s like what are you doing to prepare, whether it is with a chiropractor or PT, and hopefully both if you can make that happen. And then on top of that, staying active, staying moving, because you guys are really just doing the reinforcing behind our work at the end of the day when it comes to staying active and moving. But, we’re trying to keep people out of that antalgic positioning, which means they’re moving away from where it hurts because it’s in turn going to affect outcomes later.

So whether it’s pregnancy, or if it’s that baby coming out and their cranial bones are malformed because of the pressures that they’re experiencing for hours, and their little eyes are a little contracted or anything like that- those are kind of situations where bones are a little outta place and we are trying to mold and reset things.

Roxanne: Yeah. But they, those bones are supposed to move.

Savannah: Right!

Roxanne: And sometimes when they’re doing that, that’s what happened to my oldest, Lily, was her bones were stuck and they weren’t moving when they should have been moving. And so like when we brought her to the same chiropractor that Gina had her magic happen and when she was like, sucking, like her jaw wasn’t even moving on one side. And so they’re like, “This is literally not moving at all.” And like, I put my hand there and you’re like, you feel like that is restricted. She’s not able to open her mouth, which is why she can’t get a good latch. And they just adjusted it, and then you literally saw her cranial bones start to shift as she was nursing.

Savannah: Yeah.

Roxanne: And I was like, you are like a frigging, like frigging using your fingers just to…

Gina: Yeah.

Roxanne: …move their bones around. But literally she’s like, “I’m not doing anything. I’m literally just supporting her and telling, ‘Hey, go that way,’ and then it would move.”

Savannah: Yeah.

Roxanne: And I was like, you’re freaking like levitating her skull bones around.

Gina: Yeah.

Roxanne: But it made such a big difference. But with that, yes, it was magical in the moment, but it’s also still collaborative care, because she still needed a tongue tie adjustment, but it helped take away the pain so that I could make it to her adjustment so that I wasn’t just continually damaging my nipples. But like they identified like, “Hey, she has these restrictions in her body, to include her tongue, that we can adjust to make it more comfortable and also be like the prehab for the release.”

So I see so many people that do have like oral ties for their babies, and the people just like immediately go and get the release done. “Oh, my baby’s two days old, they have a tongue tie. I need to get this released immediately.” And then they continue to have issues afterwards because they didn’t do any movement or anything really beforehand. They’re just like, release, then we’re done, this will fix the issue. When the issue is like, yes, that tongue tie was restricted and that was restricting movements, but also everything else that’s tied to that also needs some movement as well. And if we’re not helping all of those things move and adjusting all of these other things, then that collaborative care is not there. So it’s yes, you need your like dentist to release it, but you also need like the other body workers, the chiropractors like massage therapist. The team needs to be there, and if your dentist is like, “No, you only need me, I am the solution,” or, your chiropractor says, “Releases are evil. You don’t need one. All you need to do is continue to come to me two times a week for the rest of your life.”

Savannah: Oh, Jesus.

Roxanne: Then you’re like, I’m poor.

Savannah: Say it with me everyone: red flag!

Gina: That would be a huge red flag.

Roxanne: I cannot afford this, it’s my college tuition.

Savannah: That’s a good conversation to have though, because I think that’s the basis of any conservative management. If I’m a surgeon and I cut, great, like my job’s done, but that doesn’t mean the healing process is over. And I think people get really frustrated with me sometimes- they come in and they expect to feel better in one visit. And unfortunately, I wish I could snap my fingers and people feel better instantly, I’d be… I’d be retired by now! That’d be great! I’d be done!

Roxanne: Charge so much yes from that one visit!

Savannah: But unfortunately I have to use my hands and it takes some time. And research shows that anytime we’re implementing any change to a musculoskeletal movement, it can take anywhere from six to eight weeks, and a training program, and a treatment program to even feel the benefit. And then again, are we addressing the issue? Are we actually getting to the problem? And that’s the risk you run with conservative management, but it’s a risk worth being willing to take because once you do cut it’s over with, it’s done. But yeah, it’s, it goes back to even if you are doing a surgical management, okay, now you gotta do your PT. Like now you have to do the hard work.

Roxanne: Yeah. You have to do, you can’t just do the release, you have to do the stuff beforehand. Like you can’t just go get your knee replaced and then, okay, have a good day, that’s it! Like, you have to do the PT before and after to actually be able to use that knee.

Savannah: Yeah.

Gina: Yeah. And so our dad got a knee surgery, hip and knee surgery- a replacement? I dunno.

Roxanne: Yes.

Gina: Where he did like prehab to his surgery.

Savannah: Amazing.

Gina: Because they’re like, yeah, if you go into this with better movement and with more strength, it’s going to be easier for you to recover from. Which makes total sense! Like even during pregnancy, it’s not just about, like right now during pregnancy, it’s also about like postpartum.

Roxanne: Yeah, absolutely.

Gina: And so if you can move through your pregnancy and be more comfortable, you’re going to be able to strengthen more and be at a higher level of conditioning going into your birth so that you can heal easier after birth. And that’s really these different modalities with chiropractic care, with PT, with working with your provider, working with fitness trainers, can be like incredibly beneficial- not just for right now, but also for future plans of things that you may want to do. So I’m obviously a fan of chiropractic care.

Roxanne: But again, it’s not like you’re just going to the chiropractor for all your medical needs.

Savannah: Right.

Roxanne: It’s not, “Oh, I have a flu. Let me go to the chiropractor that is my only doctor. No.

Gina: I did have a, like, ear infection thing- and we can talk about this too.

Roxanne: Oh, you did.

Savannah: Yeah.

Gina: I had this like crazy ear infection thing where I went to urgent care and they gave me like antibiotics, I think, or they gave me something, and it didn’t help. Like I just had this horrible like ice pick headache and then I was like, I have a brain tumor!

Savannah: Of course.

Gina: But I actually was like, “Maybe I just fucked up my lymph flow,” ’cause I was doing all this like “goo-sha” or Gua Sha stuff.

Savannah: Gua sha, yeah.

Gina: But I think I was going in the wrong way, and so I think I was just like flooding my ears with lymph. And so I was like, “I think that might have been what did it.” But I went and got an adjustment to help improve how things were flowing, and that like really helped me. And so like I think medicine is there for us when we need it and I am, I’m not opposed to it at all, but I think it’s like if I can explore other modalities that will probably help me feel better, to do a more conservative treatment, or try both and see which one works better. I’m like, my kids haven’t had ear infections, but I have heard that if they have recurrent ear infections, it may be something deeper than just how much antibiotics you can give them. Like maybe there’s a fluid thing going on.

Roxanne: Yeah.

Gina: Do you have any like insight on that?

Savannah: Yeah, no, this is a great conversation.

I feel like when it comes to chiropractors, people get, again, the woowoo, the witch doctor, whatever. First of all, respectfully, I’m a doctor, worked my butt off for it. I’m an option. And I think that’s the thing is like having us on your team as an option. And a lot of my patients who do use us almost as their primary care, it’s not that they won’t go to the urgent care, they won’t go to their medical doctor, but they might try the holistic option first. And I think that’s the beautiful thing of conservative management, is to go that route first. So it’s not that I’m going to solve all your problems, it’s just maybe you start here and if it’s not conservative management and I do need to implement an antibiotic, or I do need to implement a steroid, great. It’s there. It’s easily accessible. So establishing with a chiropractor and having us on your team, once you do that, now we’re here to help you and navigate those different things. And I’ll tell people, they’ll come in and be like, “Oh, I’ve read like chiropractic can solve all our like issues with recurrent ear infections.” I’m like, “Yeah, let’s do a trial of care. But at the end of the day, if it’s a bacterial issue or a viral issue, then yeah, I might not be able to help you much.” But we do know with, with ear infections. It can be bacterial, it can be viral, or it can be structural, and often, more often than not, at least when I see it with babies, it’s usually structural. Is it a TMJ issue? We talked about that earlier. Is the TMJ joint not moving in its full range of motion? Does the body create inflammation to help try and urge that joint to allow it to move? We put fluid there, naturally- our brains or our bodies are smart, they want the joint to move, it’s supposed to. Are we going to get a little inflamed to help push it in that range of motion and then the inflammation goes down? I’m sure you guys have woken up again in the middle of the night one time, and you just can’t turn your neck, it’s sore for a few days. Your body might just be doing that to keep you, or to help facilitate a motion later. But with the ear infections, is it a TMJ issue? Is it a teething issue? Do we have inflammation in the joints and the mouth? Are we getting a fever from that? Is that what’s causing the ear infection? Because they’re usually caused from inflammation or buildup in the eustachian tube, which when they’re babies it’s horizontal, and as we age, they become more vertical. A lot of the times, if we do have those recurrent ear infections, the antibiotics aren’t touching it, it’s because it’s a structural issue and it’s just not draining. So yeah, we will adjust the upper cervical joint because that’s really close to that ear when, if you’ve looked at a baby, they’re a little small, their joints are a lot closer together than ours are. So we’ll look at the upper cervical adjustment area, see if that’s the cause of the issue. Is it a teething issue? Is it a TMJ issue? Is it all three? I don’t know. I’ve gotta evaluate and see that to see if we can do something about it, but most of the time we can.

So I think that’s why people are so like, when they are standing on top of a roof shouting out to the world that, “Chiropractics save my baby from ear infections,” because it might have, because we did try the antibiotics, we did try the other modalities, but now they’re saying, “Hey, maybe try the holistic option first, and if that doesn’t work now let’s try the antibiotics.” So it’s important for us as clinicians, and that’s why you want to do, seek out a pediatric chiropractor, someone who has done all the training to understand the pathology, why that might be happening, and to be able to diagnose properly. But that’s when you want to find them and be able to use them as a resource. And again, it’s just whatever option you would like to choose first, go down that road.

So I think it’s just, again, it’s good to have us on your healthcare team. It does not mean I’m going to solve all your problems, but I as a diagnostician need to be able to identify, can I help you right now? Or does your child need an antibiotic? And that’s important. I think a lot of chiropractors who are really crunchy- and I try to be as crunchy as possible, but I also have experienced how medicine can help me and my family and my own personal history- can I put my ego behind and say, Hey, this isn’t a chiropractic issue. Your child needs an antibiotic, or your child needs to go see another professional for this. So I think it’s just, again, seeing us as a resource, but also finding one that’s bold enough to tell you when they can help you and when they can’t.

Roxanne: Yeah.

Gina: I think that’s, I like what you said about how you guys are a option.

Savannah: Yep.

Roxanne: Yeah.

Gina: With your team. It doesn’t have to be an all or none, or chiropractic care or bust, by any means.

And I think that applies to really any sort of care that we receive. If there’s like a theme to this episode, it’s like there are a lot of people that can help you, and they can help you at the same time. It doesn’t have to be at all or none by any means. So yeah, no, I, really love the way that you worded all that.

Savannah: Yeah!

Roxanne: With the chiropractic care, obviously, it’s like more conservative. It’s not invasive immediately- I guess depending on how you think of an adjustment, but I would say non-invasive option. But it’s not financially accessible to everyone, ’cause it’s not usually covered by insurances. Do you know of like any insurances that would like reimburse for chiropractic care or like how to do that?

Savannah: Actually, most of my patients do get some reimbursement for their care. Unfortunately, we are in a very high populated military area and I’m a military spouse myself. Like I, the day that TriCare actually covers chiropractic care would be amazing, but unfortunately they just simply do not. So if you are under TriCare, unfortunately, they just do not cover chiropractic care. But most insurances do have so many coverages, like depending on the plan. I know one of my patients gets 40 adjustments a year. Granted, that’s really great healthcare, but…

Roxanne: That’s really great!

Savannah: You should check your plans and see what they offer. For me, I am not in, like I’m a non-insurance provider just because I practice a little bit differently than typical chiropractors- I take my time, I implement different modalities, most of my appointments are 30 to 45 minute follow-ups and, hour to hour and a half long for initials. That’s not typical in your regular chiropractic world, but I would also urge you to maybe explore different chiropractors and find someone in your area that does implement range of motion and exercise and reinforcements and different modalities so that you can experience that as well. Maximize your investment in that capacity. But most insurances do have different options. And I will provide a lot of my patients with what we call super bills, which is essentially if I had a billing department, which I just simply don’t for cost purposes, it’s a full-time job. Billing is really hard.

Roxanne: It’s so hard.

Savannah: Exactly.

Roxanne: It’s so hard.

Savannah: So instead of me paying someone a full-time salary to be able to submit it for you, it’s much easier for me to just hand you a super bill with what I would have submitted anyways, and then have them reimburse you directly. Realistically, I find that most of my patients get reimbursed more than I ever would be paid because the way that I bill is like exactly what I did during an appointment, and I’m not having to upcharge my prices to take the back hit from insurances. ‘Cause unfortunately, that’s just what happens. If you go to get an MRI at the hospital and you submit it with your reinsurance, they’re going to bill them like $2,000. But if you go sign up for one and pay cash, it might be $300 to $400, depending on your radiology center. That’s just how healthcare works, unfortunately, these days. So because I’m able to provide the bill for exactly what I did, usually insurance is like, “Oh, 90 bucks. That’s it? Done.” So I would just encourage you to look up your different insurance policies and see what they offer and then roll with that. And oftentimes your chiropractors in your area will probably be very well versed in that anyways, because it’s a conversation we have daily with our patients to help them get the care that they need. But it’s something to look into and just see what yours allows for.

Most chiropractors also take HSAs or FSAs. That is something that’s under that, what’s, what am I trying to say there?

Roxanne: Like umbrella?

Savannah: Yeah. It’s under the umbrella there.

Roxanne: Yeah. The payment umbrellas.

Savannah: Yeah. So I would just do your own research and see what they’re willing to work with you on, but most of us will, especially if we are cash-based, because we’re, we’ve put in the time to do that so that we can provide the care we want to. By us choosing to have that autonomy, we want to help support you and be able to get the care that you need.

Gina: So it’s interesting to note that I have been to different chiropractors in my life- most of them have been here where they’re like hour long appointments, half hour long appointments- but I have been to some that were like an in and out.

Savannah: Yeah.

Gina: They were like, “Goodbye!”

Roxanne: Yeah.

Gina: Goodbye! And so it seems really similar to if I was choosing a provider in other fields as well. So like my primary care provider, I think if I let him, I would have a five minute appointment, but if I have a lot of questions, like he’ll say to answer all my questions and do a more thorough exam with me.

Savannah: He sounds great!

Gina: But most of the time it’s, “Goodbye. Goodbye.” So it, it sounds like it’s also important to interview your providers, both your chiropractic ones and also other ones to see what type of care they’re going to provide for you and whether or not you want to invest in it. Because it’s also similar with PT, where you might have a 15 minute PT appointment, or you’re sharing an appointment with another PT client and it’s half an hour- it seems very in and out too, especially at the bigger like clinics. But once you start coming down to like individual practitioners, it seems that the appointments are a little bit longer, a little bit more individualized, where you can really figure out- okay, what does the literature say? What does my experience as provider say? And what are you wanting? And really get to that collaborative care. And so being picky with who you choose to support you really with any aspects of your care is incredibly important.

And one of the things that we usually highlight when people ask about, “Oh, how can I decrease my risk of tearing? How can I do this? How can I do that?” The biggest thing is who you choose to support you on your team. You’re medical team, you’re non-medical team, you’re external like practitioners that can help to support you throughout your pregnancy, and none of them should make you fearful of other people on your team. Once they start making you scared of your provider, of whoever, they’re not a good person to have on your team, regardless of who they are. If I have an individual, have chosen someone to support me, unless I have questions about that person or I feel uneasy, there’s really no reason for anybody else on my team to be like, “Are you sure you want to work with them?”

I see this more when like people choose like a medical provider to support their birth. If maybe it’s not somebody that like I would choose, it’s okay. Like they made a decision that this is, who they feel safest with. And unless they tell me that they want to switch to somebody else, it’s not up to me to convince them that provider’s not good for them. Like I need to remember, and other people that are supporting this person needs to remember that they are an adult, and they are capable of making decisions about what works for them and for their families. And I don’t have to push that on them. I don’t have to make them fearful of their provider or of the chiropractor, of the pt, of whoever- ’cause we’re all here to support that person. And the less conflict there is with team members, the better the experience is for that person.

Savannah: Go off Queen.

Gina: Yeah. Mic drop. I don’t want to drop my mic ’cause it’s attached.

Roxanne: It’s very expensive.

Gina: It’s attached to this table.

Savannah: No, that’s true. And if people are providers that are listening to this right now, like I love when other providers reach out to me like, “Let’s go get coffee.” I love if someone doesn’t understand chiropractic care, especially because I practice a little bit different than the old school style, I’m like, “Let me show you what we can do and help you to understand.”

And I think we talked about this earlier, just being a lot of fearmongering. I think most of the times if a medical physician is telling you not to go see a chiropractor, they don’t understand what we do.

Roxanne: Yeah.

Savannah: They haven’t taken the time to do that. So bad on them for not taking the time to go meet their local providers and see what other resources are in their community. But also, like, you gotta take the time to do that and it, it is hard once you’re out of school- I’m sure you’re going through this now- it’s just It’s so hard to go shadow, or go meet, or get access to those other professionals. And if we are providers, and like I said, if you are one and you’re listening, like lower that gate, lower that down for people so that we’re able to work together as a community. But I think yeah, you, hit that right on the nail on the head with that. I think it’s just a matter of us putting our egos down a little bit and taking time to maybe understand other options.

And even for me, like I think there’s a lot of pressure to be crunchy and holistic, and I alluded to this earlier, like I grew up with a sister who had severe medical issues, and I grew up in and out of a hospital every few weeks, and I saw what medicine can do, but I also saw the holistic side of care ’cause she was treated with nutrition. And so I think at some point we have to realize that there’s a place for everything. But, how can you support the patient? I have moms that come in all the time. They’re like, “I want a Cesarean birth. That’s what I’ve decided. I’ve scheduled it,” and you know what my response is? I’m going to be a chameleon and say, “You go, girl! How can I support you with that?” Obviously I would recommend that they talk to their doula and see what their other options are, and I’d love to provide them a midwife and go into other directions, ’cause I’m more of a holistic standpoint, but I’m going to support them as a provider because that’s the decision they’ve already made.

Roxanne: Yes.

Savannah: And in the same capacity, if my mom’s come in and they’re like, “I have this home birth. I want to do this and that,” I’m like, “Great, let’s see how I can support you.” So it’s my job as a provider to know what modalities and options there are out there to help support whatever decisions those people make. Having the footing, again, the ego aside, and being able to have those conversations willingly, and not have that resistance up- because again, that’s where that loss of trust is. If you don’t trust your provider, your decisions are going to be clouded.

Gina: Absolutely. Thank you so much, Savannah. We could probably talk for a really long time. We’ll talk offline. We don’t need to record at all! But thank you so much for coming to the studio and sharing what a chiropractor is and debunking some of the misinformation out there. I usually feel like there’s this weird battle between like chiropractors and PTs where, again, we’re all here to support the person.

Roxanne: Yeah.

Gina: It doesn’t matter if they see a PT and they also see a chiropractor, it doesn’t take away. And it almost feels like there’s this battle of, “No, you only need PT. Chiropractic is stupid!” And then the other side, the chiropractors like, “No, they only need chiropractors!” It’s like, why?

Roxanne: We can all just hold hands together.

Savannah: I work in tandem with so many PTs in town and thank goodness for them because, for real, what we see outcome wise is if you have both, the patient gets better faster, and we’re able to accomplish what we’re really good at. For example, really quick and then we’ll get off of here. But like when I work with a PT, one of my friends, McKayla, she specializes in neuro things around town. So if I have a patient that presents with Parkinson’s or some of these neuro things, obviously I can help stimulate the nervous system and help to promote some of that healing. But then I’m able to provide them the referral to her so that she can do all the neuro things and get really nitty gritty with movement. But she’ll refer people to me because she’s just not able to get as much mobility out of the spine that she’s looking for, to be able to implement some of those changes and implement some of those motor patterns. So it’s working in tandem and also….

Roxanne: Collaborative care!

Savannah: Can we say it enough?

Gina: Yeah.

Savannah: But just being able to provide what’s needed in that moment to get the best outcome with the conservative management. So I think PTs and chiropractors we’re in this really beautiful phase right now of care, that there is information out there and humbly, I would like to just say that if your PT or chiro is saying that, they’re probably not taking the amount of steps that they need to be the most evidence-based, sound, or evidence-adjusted, whatever you want to say, because the information is there, we do get training. Some PTs are learning how to mobilize for the same reason that I’m using different certifications post schooling to be able to implement rehab and sports and performance and movement. But it’s just allowing people to do what they’re really good at. So maybe mine’s mobility. I’m really good at getting mobilization into a joint, but maybe another PT is really good at facilitating that into a more long-term program. So just letting people do what they’re good at, but also finding ones that you trust, I think that’s just been the biggest conversation point that we’ve had here. So yeah, red flags, if they don’t support you and they are telling you not to do something, that’s a big red flag. And then two, just finding people that are willing to work together.

Gina: Yeah, we are all a team. All our powers combined help you better.

Roxanne: Yeah. But they’re also like a fully autonomous, fully grown adult for most of us. If you’re a baby, obviously not fully grown. But like we’re fully autonomous people that can make our own decisions, even if it’s not what your doctor may be recommending, you’re allowed to make a different decision.

Savannah: And as providers, we need to remember that patient is part of the team, too.

Gina: Absolutely.

Savannah: So I think that’s a little important there too.

Roxanne: Patient preferences.

Savannah: Yes.

Gina: Thank you so much Savannah, for coming on the podcast. If you live local to us at Moore County, check her out. I can’t remember the name of the road that you, work on. It’s like Pinehurst 70?

Savannah: Pinehurst 70.

Gina: There we go. Check her out at the Movement Foundry. She has a table that the legs drop and she could swivel your hips around. It’s really nice.

Savannah: Oh, it’s my favorite type of adjustment.

Gina: Oh, it’s, it was amazing. So definitely check her out if you’re local to us. She also specializes a little bit in golf, so if any of you are golfers.

Savannah: Yeah!

Gina: She’s got like an inside like VR screen thing.

Savannah: Yeah. We’ve got a track man studio, it’s pretty cool.

Gina: It’s pretty cool.

Savannah: We can get pretty nitty-gritty.

Roxanne: And some children and pregnant women.

Savannah: Yeah. I joke, “Womb to tomb!” If you’ve got a spine, I’ll adjust it.

Gina: Thank you so much for coming on the podcast.

Savannah: Thank you.

Gina: Thanks so much for listening to this episode with Dr. Savannah about how we can integrate chiropractic care into our healthcare continuum. Like we can have multiple providers helping us to enhance our prenatal experience. It’s not only one and nobody else, it’s all about being on a collaborative team.

And when you have practitioners that support you during your pregnancy, that understand that they are part of a team, you’re going to have a better experience. Whether it’s your medical provider, whether it’s your non-medical support people, your pt, your chiropractor, your fitness trainer, whoever is supporting your birth- if they understand that the main point of it is to enhance your experience, not to boost their own egos or to feel important in themselves, you’re going to have a better prenatal experience, birth experience, and well beyond that. So it’s important to choose quality professionals to support you throughout your entire experience. And hopefully this conversation with Savannah helped you to figure out how to choose someone to support you.

And if you want more support from us to help you navigate your pregnancy, your birth, and postpartum experience, check out our online childbirth education course where we guide you through what your options are during your birth, what type of movements can be really helpful both during pregnancy and during your labor, and a little bit, tiny bit about postpartum as well to help you prepare for that experience. And you could also couple our childbirth education course with our prenatal fitness program so that you can feel confident moving your body throughout your pregnancy. We’re big advocates for exercise throughout pregnancy and how it can really increase your quality of life and help you feel more comfortable in your body as you navigate your pregnancy and prepare for birth. But we’re obviously huge fans of adding on additional support as you navigate this experience. So we are not the only people that you need to be learning from throughout your pregnancy, but we’re really glad that you chose us to support you.

And you can check out all of our online courses on our website at mamastefit.com and use code STORY10 to get 10% off any of our online offerings. And we’re more than happy to answer any questions that you have on navigating our online courses. And we offer tons of free content, both here with our podcast, on our YouTube channel and on Instagram.