Understanding Perinatal Mood Disorders with Dr. Chelsea Bodie

00:00:00] Roxanne: Welcome to the MamasteFit podcast. On this episode, we have Chelsea Bodie from Mama Psychologist here to talk all about perinatal mood disorders. What are they? How to identify them in yourself? And then, what can we do to kind of cope with different feelings that we’re experiencing in the postpartum?

[00:01:00] Roxanne: Welcome to the MamasteFit Podcast. On this episode, we have Chelsea Bodie here from Mama Psychologist to talk all about perinatal mood disorders, and I’m so excited to have her. Thank you so much, Chelsea, for being here.

[00:01:15] Chelsea: Thank you for having me. I’m excited to be here.

[00:01:17] Roxanne: Of course. And can you introduce yourself to our listeners who may not know about you?

[00:01:21] Chelsea: Absolutely. So I’m Chelsea Bodie. I’m a registered psychologist in Alberta, Canada, and I’m one half of Mama Psychologist. So if I say “we” a lot, I’m probably referring to my counterpart as if we were here together, who is Caitlin Flavin.

[00:01:38] Roxanne: Perfect. So your specialty is like perinatal and like motherhood psychology.

[00:01:45] Roxanne: So a very common thing that we talk about in preparing for postpartum is like being aware of those perinatal mood disorders because they are a little bit more common than probably are even diagnosed. There are probably people that are undiagnosed and have these postpartum mood disorders. So could you go into, what exactly is a perinatal mood disorder and what are the statistics on it?

[00:02:09] Chelsea: Yeah, absolutely. So when we’re talking about perinatal mood disorder, it’s a bit of a newer term, to be honest, it used to be called like postpartum depression was kind of the thing that was talked about. whereas now we’re kind of recognizing it can show up in different ways and it doesn’t necessarily mean it’s only depression.

[00:02:26] Chelsea: So, “perinatal” is talking about any kind of mood disorder or disturbance that can come up from pregnancy- so prenatal all the way until after childbirth, so that postpartum period. And, you know, there’s a little bit of a debate about what postpartum period means, right? When you’re reading the research and the textbooks, you know, typically they’re going to be talking about one year postpartum, but we argue it’s much longer than that.

[00:02:52] Roxanne: Yes!

[00:02:53] Chelsea: So it, when you’re looking at like the “diagnostic criteria,” quote unquote, you’ll be looking at that like postpartum one year since giving childbirth, approximately. And lots of things can fall under that mood disorder kind of category. So truly what we’re talking about is that depression, anxiety, OCD, sometimes PTSD depending on the birth experience or even postpartum psychosis.

[00:03:18] Chelsea: So there’s lots of different mood disorders that can kind of fall under that umbrella, and some are more common than others. So typically we’re looking at the anxiety, depression, and often anger are, typically the ones that are reported the most. In our world anyways, again, but as you said, right, just cause it’s reported doesn’t mean it’s, we’re catching all of it.

[00:03:39] Chelsea: There’s probably a lot more as in, for example, we know dads, the research says about one in 10 dads will have a postpartum depression or anxiety struggle. So it’s interesting to see how it’s kind of changing as more people talk about it.

[00:03:53] Roxanne: Yeah, I feel like that’s just true about mental health in general, is that like more people are kind of being more open to it because it’s not as taboo to talk about it. That people who have even just depression in their everyday life are being more vocal about it, but especially in like the postpartum period, more people are sharing like the struggles that they’re having and being like, “Hey, this isn’t normal and maybe I should talk to somebody about it because this isn’t ‘just motherhood,'” whereas maybe previously it was just, this was your accepted fate, because this is just motherhood.

[00:04:24] Roxanne: So the CDC has just released new information, especially here in the U. S., is like the number one killer now for postpartum people is mental health. So it’s like something related to mental health. It used to be, you know, postpartum hemorrhage and hypertension, so high blood pressure, were like the two things everyone harped on, cause those were the things that were on top of the list for maternal mortality.

[00:04:48] Roxanne: But now those have been topped by mental health, which is so important to talk about because this is an important topic that people need to be aware of, look for the signs and symptoms to be able to address and, get help.

[00:05:02] Roxanne: Because I know myself, in my second postpartum, we had just moved to California six weeks before I had a baby, and when I was here, my parents lived three doors down, like super close to me, had all of the support in the world, and then I went from being super supported, not just in like postpartum and pregnancy, but like motherhood, to having no one but my husband, who was in a graduate school program, so wasn’t home enough, as much as I needed him in that immediate postpartum period. My mom stayed for maybe a month, but then she had to like, come back home. Like she couldn’t just stay in California with me. So I really struggled for that first year postpartum. And I just attributed to, you know, “I don’t have as much help anymore. I have two kids now, my husband’s busy, I just have to do a lot more things. I have to juggle a lot more things, and this is just normal.” Until I got to a year postpartum and then I like look back. And I’m like, “Oh, maybe I wasn’t just struggling because this was just what I was supposed to do. Maybe I legitimately needed help?”

[00:06:08] Roxanne: But it’s hard sometimes to see that in yourself and be like, “Yes, I should go speak to somebody because I probably have some postpartum depression.” And I think my midwives had even mentioned, she’s like, “Hey, I think it sounds like you are having some struggles with this postpartum.” She’s like, “So it might be helpful to reach out.” But like in the throes of it, you’re just like, “I don’t have time! I’m doing so much stuff. I don’t have time to reach out to somebody cause it’s probably fine.”

[00:06:35] Roxanne: But looking back, I’ve for sure had, I mean, I do struggle with anxiety, so I definitely had some postpartum anxiety and postpartum rage for sure. And I definitely probably would have benefited from some therapy in that first year of postpartum. Hindsight diagnosed myself with some postpartum anxiety. But going into my third pregnancy, I was aware of that history, so I knew when I should definitely reach out to somebody because I was displaying those signs. Whereas before I didn’t really know. I feel like the postpartum rage symptom isn’t talked about a ton as like a thing that is a sign to reach out.

[00:07:15] Roxanne: So what are some other signs that not just like we could be aware of in ourselves, but also like your partners and like friends and family can be aware in somebody that is a sign of a perinatal mood disorder?

[00:07:26] Chelsea: So in terms of signs and symptoms, it’s going to be dependent on the condition, but I’ll specifically kind of talk about that depression, anxiety, because those are going to be probably the most common ones that people are looking for.

[00:07:39] Chelsea: So first and foremost, we want to pay attention to, are our symptoms changing? And what I mean by that, are they getting worse? Are they getting better? Are they staying the same? So, you know, typically you’ll hear about that “Baby Blues,” right? The first three weeks ish of postpartum.

[00:07:53] Roxanne: Yeah.

[00:07:54] Chelsea: And we’re going through the major hormone shifts. We’re adjusting to life with a newborn. Even if it’s your second baby, you’re bringing home another baby to the mix. And so, really it’s, we’re kind of looking after that period of time because I don’t know many who haven’t had a little bit of Baby Blues to some level. So, you know, we want to see those symptoms improving.

[00:08:14] Chelsea: Are you still really teary? Do you find it really difficult to regulate your emotions? Are you having trouble feeling connected to your baby? are you feeling like there’s a lot of worthlessness or guilt? Or that self harm or harming baby, right? Those intrusive thoughts that can feel really scary. We also want to pay attention to that loss of interest in activities. So all of that is going to fall under the umbrella of depression.

[00:08:40] Chelsea: Rage is an interesting symptom because you can have just like this postpartum rage that a lot of women will describe, it’s not necessarily a specific like DSM diagnosis or anything like that.

[00:08:50] Roxanne: Mmm-hmm. Yeah.

[00:08:51] Chelsea: Anecdotally, you’ll hear a lot of women describe this rage. So we often look at that rage too, is it a warning sign? We often look at it as, okay, do you have an unmet need? Are you experiencing burnout? Or are you experiencing a perinatal mood disorder, right? Cause that rage can often come with that as a sign and a symptom. And that can also fall under the postpartum anxiety as well. So, rage can just be a tool, right? And I think we’re often taught that rage is bad. And it can feel really overwhelming for moms because they’re like, “I’m not normally an angry person” or, “I’m so reactive, like this feels really scary to me.” and so I think just giving it a little bit of a voice and exploring it and being curious about it can be really helpful.

[00:09:33] Chelsea: And then when we’re looking at that postpartum anxiety, so, you know, naturally with parenting, there’s a little bit of anxiety that comes with that, right? I’m five years in and I’m still worried about my kids and thinking about them and doing all those things, so it really is paying attention to how much it’s impacting your day to day life. So, when we’re looking at: is there excessive worry, right? Like you’re having restlessness, you can’t sleep, you’re having difficulty concentrating, or even getting some of those more physical sides of anxiety of: panic attacks or chest pain, difficulty breathing, right? Anything like that. If it’s becoming more intense or the system, symptoms, excuse me, are staying consistent, then we really want to pay attention to that and potentially explore that postpartum anxiety.

[00:10:19] Roxanne: And I think that the fact of, a little bit of anxiety obviously is healthy for people because it keeps us safe in a way. You’re not going to go… I personally get anxious in tight spaces. So, that keeps me from going into tight spaces that potentially may actually harm me. So, a little bit of anxiety is healthy, especially as you’re a new parent.

[00:10:40] Roxanne: But I think the important difference between postpartum anxiety and just maybe a little bit of healthy anxiety is that it affects your daily living. So I would find myself that I’d be like, “Oh, let’s go to the aquarium today. Let’s get out of the house. We’re going to go to the aquarium. We’re going to do something fun.” And then one thing would happen at home and I’d be like, “No, we’re going to stay home now. We’re not going to leave our bubble. We’re just going to stay in this house because something might happen.”

[00:11:07] Roxanne: And in the moment, I was just like, again, I’m in this new place. I like could reason it. But the fact that it was like affecting my daily living, where like I wasn’t leaving the house and I was just staying home and not exploring and being social, which also was really hard- that’s when it was affecting my daily life. And I think that had I had someone who was, like, around me more, someone would have been like, “Hey Roxanne, I think that maybe you’re having some troubles, and let’s, talk about it.”

[00:11:38] Roxanne: So I love that. That is, a huge difference, I think, in postpartum anxiety, where it maybe you need some treatment versus some maybe just like, healthier anxiety.

[00:11:50] Chelsea: Yeah, absolutely.

[00:11:52] Roxanne: I hate to say, “healthy anxiety,” but like a little bit of anxiety is fine for somebody throughout their life, but it’s when it’s like affecting your actual life that it’s a problem.

[00:12:02] Chelsea: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

[00:12:03] Roxanne: Just like anything- within reason, like within moderation, is always good. A little bit of anxiety is fine, but it’s when it’s a lot that maybe we need to seek help.

[00:12:15] Roxanne: So we’re talking about, obviously, signs and symptoms that we can look for and why it’s important to look for it. But, just like with everything, is there a way to potentially prevent these from even, appearing in our daily life? Or is this just sometimes due to the changes in our bodies, postpartum, with our hormones, and, adjusting to this new life that sometimes this is almost unavoidable?

[00:12:40] Chelsea: Yeah, no, we get asked that question a lot and I wish we had a magic answer to be like, “you will have just take a perinatal disorder or you won’t.” But so what we really look at is risk factors and protective factors. So risk factors are anything that are going to increase the likelihood that you will experience a perinatal mood disorder and a protective factor is obviously anything that’s going to help you be more supported or you know, be a positive influence and may be helpful, should you have a perinatal mood disorder- or help in preventing maybe the symptoms in coming out.

[00:13:16] Chelsea: And so, you know, when we’re exploring that, we really want to know about people’s lives, right? But pre pregnancy, which sometimes it feels like, you know, that, that can be all consuming. But, you know, have you had anxiety or depression before? That would be a risk factor, right? Your environment, do you have supports, right? If you don’t have any supports or any community, that could be a risk factor. If, depending on how you even individually feel about your pregnancy, that could be a risk factor. Pregnancy loss or any traumatic event, related to pregnancy or even outside of that, can sometimes be a risk factor as well. So, it really is just kind of understanding where your experience is and where you’re coming from, but there’s nothing that’s going to guarantee it’s going to happen or not happen.

[00:14:02] Chelsea: I like to use myself as an example. So with my first, I definitely had some struggles after, it’s a little bit complicated with we had NICU and things like that. So there’s a lot of factors in there that made that experience very… intense, I guess I’ll say. But with my second, I did a lot of proactive stuff and I did what I could to help. I was like, I knew I struggled, I knew these are stressors for me. And so, I actually didn’t feel the same, even though her birth was probably in some ways a different kind of trauma, but I came out of it and I was like, “I don’t feel that way about it.” If I tell my story and I share my experience, it would sound traumatic, but I don’t feel that way. And so it’s just interesting that every birth can be different, regardless of the events that happen throughout it.

[00:14:51] Roxanne: I think that it’s also sometimes not about how the experience goes down, but how you are supported throughout the experience, if that makes sense.

[00:15:02] Chelsea: Yeah, absolutely. No, people definitely will describe that.

[00:15:06] Roxanne: Because we can’t obviously talk about perinatal mood disorders, I mean, maybe you can, but I feel like another huge part of it is like you were saying, your birth. Like how your birth went and how you feel about your birth could also mean you could enter into postpartum already in this incredibly fragile state. If you had some sort of birth trauma or something happened during your pregnancy or birth process, this could like almost enter you into the postpartum period already weakened, that can just increase that risk.

[00:15:36] Roxanne: So what are some tools that maybe somebody could use who maybe did have a more traumatic birth or pregnancy that they can utilize in that early postpartum period to maybe again, re-heal themselves so that risk of postpartum mood disorders could decrease? If that makes sense.

[00:15:54] Chelsea: Well, my opinion’s always going to be biased around this, but I think if you have access to therapy or if that is an option, it’s never too early to start.

[00:16:03] Roxanne: Yes, number one.

[00:16:03] Chelsea: Regardless of where you are. Number one, therapy.

[00:16:07] Roxanne: Number one tip, therapy. Us too!

[00:16:12] Chelsea: But I know that’s not a realistic thing for everybody, right?

[00:16:16] Chelsea: And so I think it’s being aware, like we always encourage clients to create like a postpartum coping plan, so you know, what are your supports? What are your resources? Write it down in one place. So if you are in a space where you’re like, “I’m sleep deprived. I can’t think. I don’t want to Google that thing, like that feels like so much energy to me.” It’s already written down. It’s there. You don’t have to think about it, right? It’s also having those conversations with you know, if you do have a partner or a support system, “Hey, these are my things that I’ve noticed that don’t feel very well.” Or, “Hey, I know postpartum depression is a thing. Can you help me pay attention for these signs and symptoms and let me know if you notice anything?” And just having that hopefully open conversation where they’re able to kind of provide you with some insight too. Because you’re right. Sometimes you don’t know when you’re in it, you’re just like, “I’m surviving here. I’m just getting through it.” And then I look back a year later and I’m like, “Oh. That wasn’t a great time for me.”

[00:17:14] Chelsea: And knowing yourself, right? Finding some reputable resources and knowing what the signs and symptoms are so you can be aware of it for yourself, right? If you’re like, “I, feel really resentful towards my baby and I don’t know if that’s normal or not, right?” Or, you know, different questions like that. It’s okay to ask and it’s okay to wonder, right? It doesn’t make you a bad parent by wondering if the way you’re feeling is normal or not.

[00:17:36] Roxanne: And your feelings are always valid because they’re your own feelings but maybe, like you could have better feelings for that situation by obviously being aware of them.

[00:17:46] Roxanne: But we are also a huge like advocate for therapy. We think everyone should see a therapist, personally. It’s like a little oil change for our mind. Even if you feel fine, it’s always great, I think. But I feel like the hardest part for me is when I realized that, yes, I probably have a little bit of postpartum anxiety after a year, and I was like, “Well, it’s either going to get better, but I should probably try to find somebody.” Which I was in a new location, like I had a therapist before we moved, but she could not see me when I was no longer in North Carolina. So, in the move, and then the birth, I just never found a new one. And then once I realized that, oh, I should probably find someone to talk to- and I think my husband even very nonchalantly was just like, “Hey, things seem a little off, I think you need to speak to somebody,” and I was like, “Okay, cool. Now what do I do? Let me just take some time off to go find a therapist when I have these two children at home.” And he was just like, “Okay… I didn’t mean to make a fight, I was just…” But that is a huge barrier for a lot of people is that they don’t know where to start to even find somebody. And then, you find someone, but maybe they’re not specialized in this perinatal timeframe. Because I feel like it is… you have family therapists and psychologists who are still obviously educated on this time frame, but like finding someone who like this was their bread and butter was even harder.

[00:19:21] Roxanne: So are there like directories where someone could go to find someone in their area or who does the telehealth type of appointments, since that is like since COVID that is one of the things that I feel like has exploded is telehealth, especially like therapy. Is there like a directory where someone could find somebody? That would make it super easy.

[00:19:45] Chelsea: Psychology Today is great because you can get a description, right? It kind of says what the area of expertise is. I believe PSI, so Postpartum Support International has a directory, but the only issue is that if they’re not registered with them, you won’t be able to find them there.

[00:20:00] Chelsea: So that can be tricky. It’s a bit of a double edged sword in that way. So it might be doing a Google search and just asking, “Hey, do you have training in this area?” Because I think sometimes it is difficult to find.

And, so we are working on something to help bridge that gap right now, actually, for North America.

[00:20:22] Roxanne: Yeah, that’s, I guess you kind of have to make it a little bit smaller, but North America, that’s, that’s America, Canada. And I think that it. There is such a need for more of this type of help, if that makes sense. Because I think we know a few who are like kind of specialized in the perinatal time frame, but even like the one that I spoke to, she was a family counselor that like had just had experienced herself and a lot of her clients had the experience, so she kind of just learned just by experience, not necessarily being trained in it formally. But I think it was still beneficial, but I think that’s such a barrier for people is finding someone to talk to. So it’s nice that there are directories available.

[00:21:07] Chelsea: Yeah, absolutely. And don’t be afraid to ask, too. Like I think people are sometimes like, “I can’t ask if they have that training,” or, “I can’t get more information like. They’re a therapist, right?” Just always ask. It’s always okay, right? And if it’s a good therapist, they should tell you and if they don’t have the training, they should be able to help you connect you with somebody else that maybe does.

[00:21:29] Roxanne: Yes. I think that’s, it’s such a hard thing, maybe it’s the millennial in me, it’s so hard for me because I feel like loyal to people to be like, “Oh, I met you for one appointment. Now I should stay with you forever, even though maybe you’re not the best fit for me because I feel loyal to you.” But it is okay. They will understand that you are finding someone who is a better fit for you, if they are not either trained the way that you need, or maybe personality wise maybe they don’t jive.

[00:22:00] Roxanne: So I think that’s an important thing to add is that you can ask and if they are not the right one then you can find another person. Because it is hard though, I feel them. Because I will feel loyal to somebody and I will see them until I either move or they stopped seeing me.

[00:22:18] Chelsea: Yeah! It is. It is hard. No, but I actually, I have lots of clients that I’ll come for three to four sessions and they’re just like, “I see another therapist. I just, I want to work on this specific area related to perinatal,” and we do that work. And then I send them back to their therapist.

[00:22:34] Roxanne: Oh, that’s awesome! So that’s good to know, too, is that, you can see multiple people and it’s okay. Because there are different parts of our bodies that need different things. So, the same with our brain. Which is, I think, I was talking to my husband, it’s wild how much we don’t know about our brain and the way that we process, and anxiety and depression just in general, but it’s also the perinatal mood disorders is like we know so much, but there is so much more that we could learn about it.

[00:23:04] Chelsea: Yes, I feel like we don’t know enough about pregnancy in general, right? It’s just like, ugh!.

[00:23:09] Roxanne: I feel like I already know the answer to this, but is there something that’s maybe not like medical, pharmacological treatments, and then obviously talk therapy, but are there like supplements that somebody could take or some sort of like herbal medication that someone can utilize for postpartum anxiety or depression that can kind of help stabilize their mood, especially in those first few weeks to months postpartum when your hormones are still kind of stabilizing? Is there anything that someone could take potentially to help them stabilize that?

[00:23:41] Chelsea: In terms of that, we would probably refer to a family doctor or a naturopath. We don’t recommend any specific like medications or supplements. More so just because it’s kind of out of our scope of practice, but I mean, anybody could definitely look for something if they wanted to try. Absolutely.

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[00:25:03] Roxanne: This is a common one that I felt, especially the first four weeks, which I think still falls into that baby blues area, is that you feel emotions almost extremely heightened for some people. Where like you feel like you cry super easily when you see things, not necessarily from sadness, but just like you’re just so happy you cry.

[00:25:24] Roxanne: So this question was, “When I look at my baby I cry because I just love them so much, but then I’m also overwhelmed by the fear of everything that could possibly hurt them.” Is that, would you say, still falls into a normal kind of response, especially the first few weeks, but then like persisting past that?

[00:25:46] Chelsea: Yeah, so what that sounds like to me would be intrusive thoughts, right? And intrusive thoughts are really common. Depending on the research you’re going to read, it’s going to be 70-100 percent of moms’ experience. But what we want to pay attention to is, you know, how intrusive are the thoughts in terms of, like, how persistent are they? Are you able to, shut it off? Are you able to, you know, have that thought come and go, for lack of a better word? Or do you feel like it’s like that debilitating? Like, “I’m so stuck in that fear that I can’t do anything with my baby,” or, “I’m like leaning over the bassinet and watching them overnight,” or you know different things like that.

[00:26:25] Chelsea: So I think it would be important to pay attention to how intense it is and how disruptive it is.

[00:26:31] Roxanne: How would you then know if a worry or a thought is maybe a legitimate fear that is valid, versus like, either it’s irrational or you’re overthinking perhaps. Because like I know I am a super over thinker, I would just start to spiral pretty easily, but I can notice when I am doing it and identify it. But like how, especially in those first few months postpartum, would you help someone recognize that, yes, that’s a legitimate fear and that’s a healthy one, versus maybe, maybe you’re spiraling a little bit and you’re overthinking this thought a little bit more?

[00:27:10] Chelsea: For sure. I think it’s kind of two parts. So one, to understand intrusive thoughts, you know, we want to understand that there is a biological reason for them, or an evolutionary purpose. And so, you know, it is really the idea of when women were in caves and having babies and they had to protect their baby from a saber toothed tiger they had to be heightened. Heightened senses, heightened awareness, right? They had to pay attention to different dangers. And so, you know, really that is just carrying forward. So what we’re doing is we’re trying to become more aware in our environment, more heightened to the possibilities of fear or injury or, you know, whatever that can look like. And so that’s within like normal, right?

[00:27:51] Chelsea: Like I, again, my kids, my oldest is five and I still have these intrusive thoughts sometimes that he’s going to run into the street and get run over, right? And we may not even be by the street. We may be driving to the park or whatever. And I’m like, “Oh no, what if that happens?” Right? And it’s really just for me, it’s, “Okay, I had the thought, I know it’s an intrusive thought. I can carry on.” And we still go to the park, right? I’m not, like, “Oh, we can’t do things. I’m not going to take them to the park. We can’t play.”

[00:28:16] Chelsea: So it’s really again, are you able to recognize it? Does it feel distressing for you? Because if, you know, if there’s like any harmful thoughts, so if you have any intrusive thoughts about baby drowning in the bathtub or, you know, you causing harm to the baby, which is all normative under intrusive thoughts, if it doesn’t feel distressing or disturbing to you, that’s when we get concerned. That’s a red flag. That’s a medical emergency. And so we would send you to your nearest ER, or family physician, whatever resource, whatever support we could get you into the fastest. So it is actually a good thing if it feels uncomfortable. We want it to feel uncomfortable. It doesn’t mean it’s wrong, but that’s actually a good sign.

[00:28:55] Chelsea: So we want to talk about understanding like what intrusive thoughts are. So I think it’s important for people to know that if it’s happening, it’s just you being a protective parent and your brain rewiring to pay attention to these dangers. And so if you’re able to then say, “Okay, I had an intrusive thought and I carry on with my day.” That’s a normative intrusive thought. However, if you’re sitting in it, spiraling it, thinking about it constantly, like you’re doing the dishes, and you’re like, “I’m worried baby’s gonna drown in the bathtub, even if I’m there. It’s just gonna happen, baby’s gonna drown.” And then you’re like, in the bathtub, and you’re like, “Baby’s gonna drown. I don’t even know if I can have a bath. I need my spouse to be in the bathroom with me, and I don’t even want to do bath time. Bath time feels uncomfortable for me.” That’s when we’d be a little bit more okay, that’s spiraling out a little bit of control, and we’d want to address that.

[00:29:45] Roxanne: Because a lot of people will have these intrusive thoughts, and they’re like, “What is wrong with me?” Like, all I can think about is I think Gina always cites this example, and it’s what’s the first one that comes to mind, is that we were at an aquarium, and she’s like, “Someone’s gonna come up to me, a random person, grab my baby, and throw them into the aquarium pool.” She’s like, “That’s what I thought of.” Zero, zero reality was in this process that was going to actually happen. I mean, maybe like in one time that happened to somebody, but like the reality of that possibly happening was pretty low. And Gina was just like, “I’m just going to hold on to him and maybe not get so close to the edge because that’s unlikely to happen, but just in case, let’s take some protective measures to keep us safe.”

[00:30:32] Roxanne: So yes, that was an intrusive thought, but she wasn’t like, “We need to immediately leave this aquarium.” So it wasn’t affecting her daily life, but it was a thought she had that she was like, “Okay, this is an intrusive thought, because no one’s actually going to do that, but let me still take some measures to protect myself and my baby,” because that is, like, when we step into motherhood and parenthood, we are in charge of their lives. And this is something that we shouldn’t just dismiss all of these intrusive thoughts, but then it’s well, which ones do we listen to and which ones do we not?

[00:31:05] Roxanne: Because then I always think of that one story, I don’t know if you’ve ever heard it, from the one actor from New Girl, where he was a little boy in Chicago and his mom had this feeling that he shouldn’t go to school that day. She was just like, “You can’t go to school.” And he’s like, “What do you mean? We’re going on this field trip. I’m really excited to go on this field trip.” And then she’s like, “Oh, so you’re not going to be in this school at all. You’re like going to school and going on this field trip?” He’s like, “Yeah!” And she’s like, “Okay, so you can go to school because you’re not going to be at school. You’re going to go on this field trip.” And then that day, a school shooter came in and went into his classroom. And he’s like, “I would have 100 percent died because of just my personality. But my mom had this like feeling that I shouldn’t go to school that day.” So then it’s well, what feelings do you listen to and which ones are like, “Oh, hey, that’s, not realistic.” Do you know what I mean?

[00:31:58] Roxanne: So it’s that, is this like motherhood showing us like, maybe this is not the right way, you shouldn’t go to the aquarium today, maybe you should go somewhere else? Or is this just like how we navigate life is deciding which ones to listen to, which ones to not listen to.

[00:32:13] Chelsea: That sounds like intuition to me versus an intrusive thought, but maybe it’s hard to discern the difference. I don’t know. In my head, to me, that sounds different. But I think it’s also okay deciding, which ones are realistic too, right? When we talk about intrusive thoughts, so let’s say, let’s use cars, for example, right? Cause that’s a big one that can come up. “I’m going to drive in the car and the baby’s going to undo the car seat and get out.” And you’re like, “Okay, well, baby doesn’t even know their surroundings yet.” so, you know, that’s probably, that’s probably, an intrusive thought, right? But if you have a three year old and you’re like, “They undo their car seat and that stresses me out,” then it’s of course, that’s super realistic. what can we do to help put something in place that can help reassure you, right?

[00:33:00] Chelsea: Whereas if it’s something that seems a little bit less realistic, okay, what can we do to help your nervous system calm down? What can we do to help you cope with those intrusive thoughts?

[00:33:08] Roxanne: So what are good, just maybe one or two coping mechanisms, that someone could maybe try to implement maybe while they’re trying to get into an appointment with a therapist. Like there’s never an appointment same day for most people. So if they notice that they’re having these things and they need some like coping mechanisms what are like two easy ones for people to implement, that you would say, as they’re like in the process of hopefully getting in to see a therapist?

[00:33:34] Roxanne: Obviously, this isn’t taking the place of therapy. Everyone should still see a therapist. But what are things that they can try to implement into their daily life? Because, I know I usually will try to sit there and focus on taking five intentional deep breaths when I’m feeling anxious, and that helps calm me down to then be able to think through my thought processes. But what are other coping mechanisms, obviously, or coping techniques other than just like taking five intentional deep breaths.

[00:34:04] Chelsea: Yeah. One thing we really like we call like “Mom mantras.” So it’s like kind of reassuring yourself, a reassuring statement that you use or something that just helps ground you a little bit. So whether that’s you know, “I’m safe, my baby safe.” Whether it’s, “My thoughts aren’t facts,” right? Even just labeling it, “I’m having an intrusive thought, that’s okay, I can let it come and go,” right? Just something that’s just going to help get you into your cognitive brain a little bit, can be really helpful, right? And just reassuring. So that’s one easy one that people can do.

[00:34:35] Chelsea: Another one is, you know, actually saying it out loud, right? Like saying the thought out loud, which can be really scary sometimes, but just like taking some power away from it by saying it out loud and then hearing it and be like, how does that sound to me?

[00:34:47] Roxanne: Yeah.

[00:34:48] Chelsea: Or saying it to somebody else, too. If you have a trusted friend and be like, “Oh my goodness, I’m having these intrusive thoughts, like I just need somebody to hear me, or just know that’s happening.” and that can be really helpful too.

[00:35:00] Roxanne: No, I love that because even though saying it out loud- because I feel like in our brain, we say things differently than once we say it out loud- it automatically changes. It’s just like when you see a scenario play out in your head, and then it actually plays out and you’re like, “Oh, that did not go how I thought it would go,” because it’s like our brain, we see things differently than they actually are. So I love that. Saying it out loud. Because your ears then hear it, you’re involving more senses. And once you hear it, you’re like, “Okay, I can see that is a little intrusive. So maybe now we can work through it.” So I like that one. Maybe I’ll implement.

[00:35:37] Roxanne: I love the mantras though, because that’s a birth coping tool. So like labor mantras, we recommend that as like a way to cope with pain and labor. And we know how powerful our brain is with, adjusting how much pain we’re feeling by using different central nervous system techniques, and mantras is one of them, that it can help decrease the pain that you’re feeling by reciting these mantras to stay calm and decrease pain. So that would obviously make sense if you are feeling intrusive thoughts or anxious, by also reciting a mantra to help you cope. So I love that.

[00:36:16] Roxanne: Placenta encapsulation, you might have thoughts on it before I even ask the question, is commonly portrayed as if you have a risk factor of postpartum depression or anxiety, you can think about or explore encapsulating your placenta because it can help stabilize your moods after having a baby to help decrease your risk of postpartum depression and anxiety. And obviously there’s no like concrete studies on if this actually helps. It’s just like anecdotal evidence from some people, unless you have seen studies to support it. But I know people that have done it who have had postpartum depression pretty severely with previous children and then they do it for their subsequent children, and have no symptoms. So I didn’t know if like you had like professional experience with placental encapsulation because this is like such a common thing that’s brought up by like the birth world, is, “Encapsulate your placenta or eat your placenta, and this will help stabilize your moods and decrease Baby Blues and postpartum mood disorders.”

[00:37:16] Chelsea: Yeah, no, that’s totally fair. It’s a fair question. Unfortunately, I don’t know. Haven’t seen any research on it to back it up. Not saying it does or doesn’t. I just think it’s so new that we don’t really understand it very well to be able to say, “Here’s a research study or here’s some research studies that have been able to talk about it.” And it’s quite new. So even like anecdotally, I actually don’t have any clients, surprisingly, that have done it, so I don’t even have any anecdotal stories to share whether it was successful or not. But I would say that would be my only caution, there is no research yet, good or bad, so, you know, it could help, it might not. I don’t know.

[00:37:53] Roxanne: And that’s the hard part is that, it doesn’t really have, a ton of risks associated with it, but there’s just not as many proven benefits. That’s not to say that they’re, again, not there, but, there’s not like a paper that will tell you whether or not it will help you or not. Which is hard because I feel like literally 50 percent of the questions were, “How do I prevent it from happening?” And so people were like, “Well, placenta encapsulation, we’ll do that.” And it may, and it may not. And it’s not cheap.

[00:38:23] Chelsea: Yeah.

[00:38:24] Roxanne: So…

[00:38:24] Chelsea: For sure. Well, I think the hard part too, is everybody just doesn’t want to experience it, which is totally fair. Like it’s not necessarily a thing that you’re like hoping happens in your postpartum or perinatal journey.

[00:38:35] Chelsea: But I think that’s what makes it even more challenging, right? It’s like it could happen in a third pregnancy. It could happen in a first pregnancy. It could happen in a fifth pregnancy. We just don’t, unfortunately, know when it’s going to show up. But I think the whole trick in there is…

[00:38:51] Roxanne: That would be nice.

[00:38:52] Chelsea: Yeah, exactly. You know, but it doesn’t mean it is going to happen either. Which the unknown is hard. But I mean, there is hope in saying it’s not necessarily going to happen. If it’s happened once, it doesn’t mean it’s going to happen again.

[00:39:02] Roxanne: Yeah. And I think it’s, so it could happen to you, like us as like the people who birthed a baby and carried the baby, but it could also happen in our partners too. So I think that’s another whole thing, like we can’t just blame it on our postpartum hormones and like the changes in our like body postpartum, birthing a baby, because it could happen to other people that are surrounding us, that are supporting us, that are also entering this parenthood journey.

[00:39:26] Roxanne: So there’s so much more that goes into it other than just recovering from having a baby, that I think is important. Because it can develop later on too. You may not develop it immediately postpartum, it could develop a couple months later as well, right?

[00:39:43] Chelsea: Yeah, most research shows at least four months, if not more. So, you know, I’ll have a lot of moms that’ll come and be like 10 months postpartum and they’re like, “Why do I feel like this now?” And it’s it’s actually really common to feel it later. Like it’s not anything you’re doing wrong.

[00:39:58] Roxanne: Yeah. Which I think is not well known, that it can show up like a ton later.

[00:40:05] Roxanne: Cause some people will be like, “I’m fine!” And then six months in, they’re like, “I don’t know what happened. I was rocking it. And now I feel like my world is like spiraling down and like hitting rock bottom.” And I’m like, “It could happen any time in that postpartum period,” which we also believe postpartum is forever, personally. So, that one year postpartum, not necessarily the timeline we also prescribe to. But, that first year postpartum could really affect our brains so much that it could show up pretty much any time in that first year, so.

[00:40:38] Chelsea: Yeah, I think it’s hard because there’s this conception about the fourth trimester, you know what I mean? There’s this, “Oh we have to make it through the fourth trimester and then I’m okay, right? I’m three months in and I’ll have it all figured out!” And you know from my perception, I think we’re always like learning and growing and changing with our kids. And so, you know, each developmental stage that your kid’s going through, you’re going to be learning something different. Something’s going to be changing, right? So not only do you have an environmental change or having the hormonal changes, if you are feeding, or pumping or breastfeeding or whatever that is, you’re also having the brain changes that can last upwards of two plus years that could be still changing. There’s just so many factors. And then given your life, just lifestyle changes, right? There’s just, it’s just not an easy problem to untwine.

[00:41:26] Roxanne: So just to wrap it all up, is there, one last piece of advice that you would give somebody who is about to enter into the pregnancy or postpartum world? One last little piece of advice? A bit of advice other than obviously, see a therapist, because I think that would be always my advice, and probably yours as well. But is there any like last like wise words that you would give our listeners who may be like entering into that postpartum world and maybe potentially might experience a perinatal mood disorder?

[00:41:58] Chelsea: I think don’t be afraid to ask questions or ask for help, right? If you don’t know or if you’re wondering or feeling like something’s off, don’t be afraid to ask.

[00:42:06] Roxanne: Yes. I just, I think that’s, I love that. That’s the first time that someone’s said those wise words, but that is so important. We are, I feel like it’s so ingrained in us to never ask for help and just to do it all by yourself, but we weren’t meant to do it alone, and you don’t know all of the answers, so you should ask for help if you need more answers.

[00:42:27] Roxanne: So thank you so much for coming on to the podcast, Chelsea, and talking all about perinatal mood disorders with a little bit of tangents in there about other things. But I loved having you on this episode and I know our followers gained so much knowledge of entering into this postpartum realm with your knowledge.

[00:42:43] Chelsea: Oh, thank you so much for having me, and I love talking about it, so it’s been great!

[00:43:44] Roxanne: Thank you for listening to this episode with Chelsea Bodie from Mama Psychologist, all about the perinatal mood disorders. How we can identify them in ourselves, what are they, and then what can we do when dealing with it.

[00:43:55] Roxanne: With perinatal mood disorders, it’s so important that we’re able to identify them and not be fearful to talk about them. Because the number one cause of maternal mortality in the United States, according to the CDC, is mental health related. And so this is a new thing that they’re noticing now, and so we need to be proactive against this issue. So we need to be more proactive when approaching mental health in the postpartum period so that we can identify the people that need help to include ourselves and others so that we can decrease this number.

[00:44:25] Roxanne: It can be hard to identify it in ourselves though, so knowing what the signs and symptoms are for your partners to be able to look out for as well as your friends and families to be able to look out to know when you need to seek help.

[00:44:37] Roxanne: By having a perinatal mood disorder doesn’t mean that you’re less of a mother or less of a parent. It just means that we need a little bit more support and a little bit more help navigating this postpartum period with this perinatal mood disorder. Even myself as a birth worker had postpartum anxiety and I had trouble navigating that journey with it, and if I had somebody to be able to identify it a little bit earlier maybe my postpartum journey would have been a little bit easier with my second.

[00:45:03] Roxanne: Mama Psychologist recently launched a service called Couples to Cradle Service where they’re able to match you with like different psychologists and therapists in different parts of the world where you can get the specific type of counseling that you need in that perinatal time frame to help optimize our mental health.

[00:45:19] Roxanne: So you can check out these services at the show notes below, as well as the links to the two directories that Chelsea shared about in the episode to find a perinatal mental health counselor or therapist near you.

[00:45:28] Roxanne: If you enjoyed this episode, please and subscribe to the podcast so you can be notified whenever we release new episodes. We release new educational episodes on Wednesdays and new birth stories every other Friday.

[00:45:38] Roxanne: And if you’re pregnant and looking for more support, check out our prenatal fitness programs in our childbirth education course. Our prenatal fitness program is offered in two formats. An on demand version where it’s follow along videos that you just play and follow along with us, and they’re available for first, second, and third trimester. As well as our app based program. This is available in a full version and a mini version. These are lists of exercise with short demo videos of how to do the exercise that you work through at your own pace. The full version is between 45 to 75 minutes in length

[00:46:11] Roxanne: And then you can bundle all of our fitness programs with our childbirth education course, which is nine plus hours of education of how to navigate labor in birth, as well as understanding the science and anatomy so it makes it less scary as you approach it, and it helps you better able to cope with labor.

[00:46:27] Roxanne: We also discuss birth options, ways your partners can support you, and so much more within this course. And again, you can bundle those together to save an additional 15 percent off. And then, as a thank you for listening to this entire episode, you can use code STORY10 to get 10 percent off any of our offerings.

[00:46:44] Roxanne: But we can’t talk about all of our offerings without also mentioning our postpartum education course to help prepare you for that postpartum, because something that can rock us during postpartum is not knowing what to expect and how to have prepared for it. But by taking our postpartum preparation course, you can understand what to expect so that it’s not as much of a shock to our system when it does happen. So we discuss different things of, postpartum night sweats, different mood disorders and signs and symptoms to be on the lookout for as well as things with baby of what to expect with baby, what’s normal, what’s not normal, and when to seek help for both you and baby.

[00:47:19] Roxanne: So you can check out all of our courses on our website at mamastefit.com. And again, you can use code STORY10 to get 10% off any of our courses.

[00:47:27] Roxanne: And this podcast is sponsored by Needed, a nutrition company focused on the perinatal timeframe that both Gina and I have utilized during our pregnancies and postpartums. And if you want to try them out, you head to thisisneeded.com and use code MAMASTEPOD to get 20% off your order.