Your Workplace Rights as a Working Mom with Daphne Delvaux

[00:01:19] Gina: Before we dive into this week’s episode, I want to share that my book, Training for Two, is now available for pre order. Training for Two is all about how you can use your prenatal fitness to help support a strong pregnancy, a pain free pregnancy, and also to help you prepare for birth. Our prenatal workouts have to be more than just a collection of pregnancy safe exercises. We want them to be intentionally designed to help us stay strong throughout our pregnancy, pain free, and then also to help us prepare for birth. In the book we break down trimester by trimester lifting modifications so you can continue to lift weights safely throughout your pregnancy, in addition to pelvic stability and core exercises to help you stay comfortable, and pelvic opening and pelvic floor relaxation exercises to help you prepare for birth. Training for Two comes out in September of 2024 and you can grab your copy in the notes below.

[00:02:06] Gina: Welcome to the MamasteFit Podcast. In this episode, we have Daphne here, who is going to be sharing all about what your rights in the workplace are during your pregnancy and then after you give birth. So thanks so much for being here, Daphne.

[00:02:19] Daphne: You’re so welcome. I’m so happy to be here. Thank you for having me. This is going to be fun.

[00:02:24] Gina: I’m really excited, just like we were chatting about before, I have been really wanting you to come onto the podcast, and so I’m so glad that you were like really excited to also be on the podcast with us.

[00:02:35] Daphne: Yeah! Aw, thank you. So sweet.

[00:02:39] Gina: Can you just introduce yourself to our listeners in case they’re not familiar with you?

[00:02:43] Daphne: Yes. So I’m, Daphne Delvaux, The Mom Attorney, and I am a mom, advocating for moms. So my expertise is in understanding and explaining maternity law, so specifically rights in the workplace when it comes to pregnancy accommodations, pregnancy discrimination, any parental leave, disability leave, bonding leave related issues, and also returning to work. Pumping, postpartum accommodations, anything that kind of is at the intersection of, motherhood and the workplace, that can feel tricky or where there’s some tension or some challenge. that’s where I live. That’s where I try to help you so that you don’t feel like you have to either forfeit your ambitions or, or, have no time with your children or not take care of your health, right? That’s not what we want. We want to find the middle way, which is very hard, but it is possible.

[00:03:44] Gina: So let’s start with what are, obviously there’s a lot, but what are our rights when someone finds out that they’re pregnant? do they have to tell their workplace right away? do they have to keep it a secret? I know like some folks get nervous if they, say that they’re pregnant that it could impact like promotions or maybe like they might get fired or things like that. So could we talk a little bit about what the general rights are when you’re pregnant?

[00:04:08] Daphne: Yeah, so let’s talk about that. And I also see women wait a long time to announce their pregnancies because they want to make sure it’s secure because they want to protect their job I usually advise people to announce their pregnancy early because unless your employer actually knows that you’re pregnant, you cannot actually rely on any of the rights and protections that will support you during the time of pregnancy. So you cannot ask for accommodations if your boss doesn’t know that you’re pregnant.

[00:04:37] Daphne: And it is true that, women who are pregnant are discriminated against or, treated adversely, but at least if your employer (knows you are) pregnant, you can actually enforce your rights. But if your employer doesn’t know you’re pregnant and you’re out of a job, or you’re written up because you had morning sickness and you were late, there’s really nothing you can do.

[00:04:58] Daphne: And also, often women don’t want to announce their pregnancy because they’re worried something might happen to the pregnancy, but if that were to be, if that would happen, you want to make sure that you can actually use some medical leave as well. So in all aspects, it’s actually in your best interest to announce your pregnancy, even if it’s scary.

[00:05:19] Daphne: Also, because if you’re waiting for a long time, operationally it’s going to make it a lot more difficult for your employer to accommodate your leave of absence. And what I’ve actually seen is women who wait to announce their pregnancies are discriminated against more when they return to work after leave because it was a lot harder for their employer to cover their absence because they had less time to prepare and it was a little bit frantic. So generally, giving your employer a lot of notice so that they can plan ahead is going to be the best thing to do to protect your job.

[00:05:53] Gina: Okay. Is there, does it have to be like written or just verbal like acknowledgement of the pregnancy? Is there any like specific things that they have to do to announce it to be protected?

[00:06:03] Daphne: Yeah. So ideally you want to tell them in writing and make sure that you retain a copy of it. You can always tell them verbally as well as a courtesy and it’s nice thing to do, but definitely make sure that you tell your employer in writing. And that’s just because a lot of women who found themselves out of a job, often, they told them verbally. And then I asked them like, “What’s your evidence?” And they don’t have any, and that makes it really hard to do anything about it. so you want to make sure that you have something in writing that goes to your employer that you save, either take a screenshot of it or your BCC your personal email address to make sure that you can have some sort of record that shows that your employer knew that you were pregnant.

[00:06:46] Gina: So you talked a little bit about like the importance of announcing early and for one of the things is potentially if you do have a pregnancy loss and being able to utilize some medical leave, I think is what you’re saying. And could we talk a little bit more about your rights if you do unfortunately have a pregnancy loss.

[00:07:03] Daphne: Yes. it’s a bit of a misconception that we don’t have any rights when that happens. We hear that sometimes like that there’s no right, and that’s because we’re talking, about the wrong leave type. And this is something I see a lot in the maternity space is that we’re really focused on kind of the wrong thing.

[00:07:20] Daphne: So in the context of a loss of pregnancy, we would not ask for bereavement leave. We would ask for medical leave. It’s considered a medical event, legally. so if you ask for a bereavement leave, you’re asking for the wrong type of leave. And that’s why a lot of women have to go back to work because they’re actually asking for the wrong thing. So as long as you qualify for a medical leave, you can go on a medical leave for something like that. Often for quite a long time. And then your state rights are going to be different, too.

[00:07:46] Daphne: So medical leave is, 12 weeks. That is going to be unpaid, but based on where you live, and some states do actually have benefit programs for this. In the state of California, where I live, you can actually take four months of paid leave after a pregnancy loss, and other states also have framework set up, not all of them do, but there are some options that you can use. You can also rely on your accommodation rights under the Pregnant Workers Fairness Act to ask for, example, like telework or remote work, just to kind of get you over some of the hardship that you just experienced. What we don’t want women to do is to rush back to work or hide it or pretend like it didn’t happen and then experience all the pain and grief silently. And we want to make sure women know that this is actually a protected event in the workplace and, that we want to make sure that we don’t suffer through that alone or, without asking for the help and support that we need.

[00:08:44] Gina: I had no idea that was even an option, if you had a loss that there was, like, these rights for you with that.

[00:08:51] Daphne: Yeah.

[00:08:51] Gina: So that, I think that’s a really incredible thing for somebody who’s in a grieving process and potentially a healing process as well, depending on when the pregnancy loss happened, to be able to have that time to heal and to grieve. So that’s really great to know that exists.

[00:09:05] Daphne: Yeah, people don’t know this. And it’s another reason why you want to announce your pregnancy, because if they don’t know and something happens and you have a loss, often, what I see women do is they then suddenly announced like, “Oh, I had this loss,” but the boss didn’t know that she was pregnant, it’s, everyone’s confused. So in all aspects, it’s easier to announce it earlier because then even if something happens to the pregnancy, at least there’s kind of that foundation at work of, “Okay. We know that, you might at one point have to be absent.”

[00:09:36] Daphne: And that’s why I also, when I work with my moms in my groups, I have them work on their leave plan the moment they get pregnant. So I don’t, we don’t wait until eight months, like we start right away on prepping for your leave because you just never know like when you’re actually going to go out. Out of work.

[00:09:55] Gina: So these groups that you’re talking about, is this like a virtual group that you like organize? Or is it like in person like consults with folks?

[00:10:03] Daphne: So I, currently have a membership program that’s usually where I work with women and I’ve also represented women and I’ve also worked with women on a consultation basis. I’ve worked with women in a lot of different settings, but right now, my main focus is through membership settings, so we can kind of offer the community aspect as well.

[00:10:22] Gina: It sounds like that would be like a really great option if somebody did have a lot of questions on how to kind of navigate all these different rights as well. Because I’m sure it’s more complicated than just announcing your pregnancy like via email, and then if something happened, like… I’m sure there’s more steps that someone would have to take to apply for medical leave or to prepare for, maternity leave after birth. So this is a really cool resource. I think you just launched it recently.

[00:10:48] Daphne: Yeah, I re-launched it. I’ve run it a few times, but I launched it in a way I think is the highest expression of what it can be. But it is true. It is complicated.

[00:10:57] Daphne: And what makes it really complicated is one, that the rules are different depending on the state. So often when women are researching their rights, they’re looking at the wrong state, or they’re looking just at federal rights, which is kind of the minimum, but it’s, it doesn’t really cover your situation, your individualized personal situation. So you’re going to get some information that’s incomplete, even in the handbook, which is usually just based on federal law, but not really state law.

[00:11:23] Daphne: So women are a little bit misinformed, generally, also because I see this in the motherhood space, we’re not really accurately talking about these issues. I see there’s a lot of outrage about what we don’t have, but no coverage of what we do have. And as a result, women just assume they have no options, which results in a lot of them quitting or pushing through medical issues. And that’s something I’m really trying to fight against is kind of the misinformation that we’re seeing, because it’s really important that women feel empowered while they’re going through this experience.

[00:11:54] Daphne: And, while we need more rights, it is not true that we have no rights. we do have some options. They’re not ideal, and sometimes it is hard, it requires a process. It requires specific language, but it is possible.

[00:12:07] Gina: So usually the message that I see most frequently is that there’s no federal maternity or paternity leave, or paid leave. And that is, that’s a pretty big deal to a lot of folks, like if you’re relying on this income, like it’s really hard to not have any of that income as you recover after birth. And so some folks may be rushing back to work, or quitting their jobs, because now they have to kind of navigate figuring out how to heal, and then childcare. And there are some ways for folks to have leave after they give birth. Can we talk about some of those options that people have?

[00:12:41] Daphne: Sure. So first, when we start with this sentence of, “There’s no federal paid leave,” let’s kind of break this down first. Because there is federal leave, but it’s only available to federal employees. And then there are, like 30 percent of Americans have access to leave through their state. And then we have another bulk that has access through their employer. So it’s a little bit of a, just a mess, which is really hard to summarize in one sentence. And it is true that there is no federal benefit system that provides access to leave benefits, to all Americans. Instead, we have some who have it and some who don’t.

[00:13:19] Daphne: And it’s really frustrating because people don’t really know where to look, what the right information is. And as we have created a database and a portal with all of this information, specific to the state so that you know what your rights are, because a woman in Massachusetts is going to have a very different experience than a woman in Alabama, and a woman in California. Like those are going to all be really, different parenting experiences and postpartum experiences because of the state systems. But what we don’t want to do is assume we have no rights or benefits, because we actually may. But it’s just a matter of actually looking at what your state provides as opposed to assuming that we have no rates and no benefit options.

[00:14:02] Daphne: But it is true that still, we’re not at 100 percent and we need to get to 100 percent of everyone having access to paid leave. If you do not have access to paid leave, you can also try to ask for leave through the Pregnant Workers Fairness Act. A lot of women I’ve worked with have been able to get a paid leave covered that way or at the very least get some sort of, when they feel like they cannot, can no longer afford unpaid leave, what I have them do is often go back to work, but work remotely so that they’re still close to their baby. And then at least they have some income or go back to work, but part time. So there, there are some options you can use within the accommodation context, but it’s really a matter of really, looking at the options that you have based on your job and your state and your particular situation.

[00:14:51] Daphne: What we don’t wanna get into when we’re looking at these very complex legal issues is that we’re comparing ourselves to someone who is in its entirely different scenario. And when we look at maternity law, because it is so localized, what we, what, we don’t wanna do is focus on, the options that are lacking at the federal level and assume that those apply to everyone in America.

[00:15:18] Daphne: It’s just a little bit more complicated, and again, it’s so hard to make like generalize categorical statements about maternity leave in America because everyone kind of has a different experience. So that’s another thing I’m trying to clarify and educate people on, is that while we have to fight for, and we do, we advocate for paid leave for all, let’s not forget about the options that are right in front of us that no one has ever told us about, that no one has ever taught us.

[00:15:47] Gina: I had no idea about the different options that were available. So when I was not working for myself as a self employed person, I was in the Army and we had maternity leave for us because I was a federal employee. And so we had 12 weeks of paid maternity leave. My husband who’s still in the military gets, he gets 12 weeks now of paternity leave. I think maternity leave is more as well now for the person that gives birth.

[00:16:11] Daphne: They just expanded it this year, actually.

[00:16:13] Gina: And so I had no awareness that not everybody got paid maternity leave after they gave birth. And it was like, so sad to me to hear that some folks were going back to work, like after a few days of giving birth or after two or three weeks. And I was just like, I felt like my pelvic floor was still falling out of my body at that point. Like I couldn’t imagine going back to work.

[00:16:38] Daphne: It’s an injustice what we’re doing to moms, like sending them back to work, so soon.

[00:16:45] Daphne: And, that separation between a mother and a baby is traumatic, like it’s traumatic to both the baby and the mother to be separated that early. And that’s really what fires me up. That’s the that’s why my work lights me up, is I’m So devoted to preventing that early separation.

[00:17:02] Daphne: I look at this work that I’m doing as preventing the generational trauma of separation between mother and child and really keeping that bubble intact as long as possible, and always trying to find creative, strategic solutions that women just don’t know they can use. Another one that women don’t know they can use is that they can get maternity leave extensions for postpartum anxiety and postpartum depression.

[00:17:29] Daphne: I had a mom message me yesterday that she took an eight month paid leave through working with me, because she didn’t know, no one knows that you can extend your leave when you have anxiety, which all postpartum moms do, I believe. How can you not? How can you not when you’re not supported, right?

[00:17:51] Daphne: So when a woman experiences anxiety about returning to work, I’m always encouraging her to actually get an extension of her leave. And there’s a, a way that you can do that, too. So I’m so focused on, just finding a way through the legal knowledge and prowess that I have to, allow these moms to stay with their babies and also not lose their jobs and healthcare, cause you need your healthcare, especially when you’re postpartum.

[00:18:19] Daphne: So there it’s tricky, right? Because it’s, we’re going up against the, the people that pay us, it’s really scary and it’s hard to ask for things that work, especially when what we’re asking for is to not work. Like it’s a very hard thing to do. And it, it just requires the art of advocacy, it requires strengthening that muscle of advocating for your body, for your health, and for your baby, which that is motherhood, it is advocacy. From the moment that you’re pregnant, you’re advocating for your body and your baby. And we have to keep practicing that. And it doesn’t mean that it’s easy, but it’s vital, like it’s essential to our survival and to our health.

[00:18:59] Gina: Are there, is there any like research in different countries that do have more paid paternity and maternity leave policies in comparison to America with like job, like workplace satisfaction? Like, how like children are responding to like being with their mothers a little bit longer? Like, how folks are healing and like feeling physically? Is there any like kind of assessment and comparison between like Canada, for example, who has some paid leave policies, or Germany, or some like European nations?

[00:19:30] Daphne: So we don’t actually have to look at other countries. We can just look at the data from California, which has had a paid leave program since (2004).

[00:19:39] Daphne: And it shows that less babies are dying. That is, the research on that is undeniable. And it shows that there’s less, turnaround at work, and there’s a stronger labor force, and women stay employed longer and, there’s less turnover, and there’s, more employee satisfaction. It’s actually better for businesses. That’s what the data shows. Because they’re not losing folks. And also, it increases breastfeeding, the chance of breastfeeding. It decreases postpartum depression, postpartum anxiety, there’s so many benefits. And also fathers taking leave actually results in children having higher grades. There’s all of these correlations between the parents being there during these early days and feeling supported, which is important, that’s what money does, having a direct impact on the child’s development. There’s a ton of data about that.

[00:20:34] Daphne: So the research is so strongly in favor of paid leave. And yeah, there’s also a lot of evidence in other countries that points to the same. But when we’re talking about these issues and sometimes, when we’re talking in the room with actual people in Congress, I noticed that they don’t love comparing America to other countries, but when we’re like actually looking at the States and we’re saying, “This is happening in America right now,” like that’s, when the argument becomes kind of indisputable. Because what we’re seeing now is just so many kind of huge differences between states. And what we want is that is harmonized, that everyone kind of comes up to, to kind of that level that we see in California, which has the strongest system and, or, Washington has a good system as well, Massachusetts, New Jersey, those are kind of the top states. And it doesn’t mean that it’s perfect and we still need to fill a lot of holes. There’s some exemptions and, seven months, six months is still not enough, but at least it’s better than a few weeks, unpaid. So we’re gonna try to at least kind of get all the other states up to where those top states are.

[00:21:50] Gina: Is there a way for folks to, advocate for this? So with a lot of, the noise about not having any sort of paid leave when we actually do have some rights for paid leave after birth, is there any way for folks to advocate to try to have their states, kind of catch up to California with this?

[00:22:08] Daphne: Yeah, one of the organizations I co founded, The Chamber of Mothers, is very focused on this. We’re uniting mothers as advocates to fight for a better America, which includes paid leave for all. That is kind of our top priority, as well as health care and childcare. And, advocacy, is one of the things that we’re teaching, is how to actually advocate, and also within community. So we have chapter meetings where you can meet other moms, which is really a nice way to meet some other moms who are also fired up about these issues.

[00:22:41] Daphne: But you want to send letters to your state representatives, because right now the leave, the leave system still come through the state. And we’re seeing some movement at the federal level, but it’s very slow. And at the state level, we’re seeing a lot of movement. So Maryland just came out with a new program. And Colorado just came out with a new program. Like it’s moving really quickly. Delaware. Just at the state level. that’s where we’re seeing most of the activity when it comes to paid leave.

[00:23:12] Daphne: And that kind of makes sense because there’s already, a lot of benefits system set up, like unemployment is also at the state level. So it’s a little bit easier for the states to implement something like this than the federal government, which would require a whole new system of benefits. And that is something that I think a lot of the federal politicians are a little bit nervous about, like, how do we set up this whole new system? And that’s a lot easier to do at the state level. So advocating at the state level is where you’re going to want to start. Sending letters to your representatives, explaining to them how much it would matter to you, the data that you’re seeing. it matters. These stories matter a lot.

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[00:25:11] Gina: What are the rights for, after you do return to the workplace? After you do come off of leave, what are your rights, in the workplace as a mother?

[00:25:23] Daphne: A few, let’s talk about the top three. So one is reinstatement rights. What a lot of women don’t know is that they have to be returned to their job, the job that they left, or a job that is almost the same. And instead what we see is women being returned to demoted jobs, to lesser jobs, because often the manager assumes, “Well, this mom’s gonna be out a lot, or that baby’s gonna be sick, or maybe she’ll get pregnant again,” and, or they might assume, or they might say, “Well, we trained this other guy to do your job, and it’s not really fair to him to then, give your, give that job back to you. That doesn’t seem fair, because you decided to have kids.” So there’s so many issues that happen.

[00:26:03] Daphne: When a woman returns to work, often there is this assumption that she has forfeited her job, which isn’t true. She has a right to her job back. And you just want to be really firm about that, “This is my job, I’m noticing I’m receiving less interesting work, or I’m noticing I’m not being invited to these things,” that’s being “Mommy Tracked,” right? This happens all the time, when you’re like, not outright fired, but just your company doesn’t fully believe you’re committed anymore. Which is so outrageous, because you’re there, you’re not with your baby, and you’re usually paying someone to be with your baby, so that’s like the ultimate act of loyalty to an employer.

[00:26:41] Daphne: So just reminding them of how much you want to be there, and you are there, and you are doing a good job, and you want to be a mother with a career, and that’s like the choice that you have made. And you want to be really explicit about that even during pregnancy and leave because a lot of managers and employers kind of act out of the assumption and fear that you might not come back. And a lot of women don’t come back after leave. And, because this happens a lot, companies are a little nervous about that. So one of the best ways to protect your job is to just be really transparent that you want to come back and that you intend to come back and that you never saw yourself as a mom who just stayed home.

[00:27:21] Daphne: Another thing to do is to ask for your pumping rights if that’s, something that you’re going for, is to ask for them quite early as well. So don’t wait to ask for your pumping rights when you go back to work because often the employer has to find a room and, they have to figure something out operationally and also they have to shift your schedule around.

[00:27:42] Daphne: So we want to keep in mind that while we have these rights, we don’t want to make it harder on our employer. And we want to make sure our employer has a lot of advanced notice when we need something. And when they have to shift things around, like I am now, I’m an employer as well. I have a business and I really appreciate early notice on things so I can plan ahead with our projects and things that we have to do. And so giving your employer early notice of you need to pump or that you intend to pump, you intend to be a lactating mother when you return back to work.

[00:28:15] Daphne: And then when you return to work, you don’t want to start on the Monday. You want to start on like a Thursday or a Friday to kind of test it out. And then stand really firm in your pumping rights. So you have a right to pump as needed, which means that, yeah, if there’s a meeting being scheduled and you need to pump like that meeting has to be moved, it’s uncomfortable, but your baby’s need for food is more important than the meeting, like that’s just what the law says.

[00:28:39] Daphne: And you can pump for a year and that’s under the new pump act and it has to be in a space that is private and not a bathroom. Some states have more extensions on this, expansions on this. So that’s also something we cover, but the minimum is one year.

[00:28:58] Daphne: Another thing to be aware of is that when you return to work, often you’ll still need some accommodations. You’ll still need some help. You might get anxiety or depression. You might have, a physical issue or a mental health issue. And then just to know that you still have postpartum accommodation rights as well, whether it’s flexibility or telework, or more time off, or, more time on projects, you can also use a Pregnant Workers Fairness Act for that, even for postpartum issues.

[00:29:28] Daphne: Let’s see, did I forget something? Okay, the last one is that a lot of managers assume that, obviously they don’t discriminate against pregnant women because that’s kind of like Business 101, but often when a woman returns to work after leave, that’s when I see most of the discrimination, most of the issues. The manager often assumes “Oh, she’s not pregnant anymore. So now I can kind of do whatever.” And that’s not true. So the woman still has actually anti discrimination protections, even postpartum.

[00:29:59] Gina: That’s awesome. That’s really great to know. I remember when I was in the Army and working for a different employer that there was a lot of, if a female soldier had to leave to go pick up her kid, it was like appalling. “She’s not committed to the unit.” But if a male soldier had to leave to go pick up his kid, at the same time, it was like, “What a great dad.”

[00:30:22] Daphne: Yeah.

[00:30:22] Gina: “I can’t believe how like committed he is to the unit and to his family.” And I’m like, “Are y’all hearing yourself? Do you know how ridiculous you sound right now?”

[00:30:34] Daphne: Yeah.

[00:30:35] Gina: And I’m assuming that applies to like all jobs, but I remember being so annoyed.

[00:30:41] Daphne: This is a story, right? it is so frustrating because it’s. It takes two people to make that baby and we just assume that it, the mom is going to be, “a slacker,” she’s going to be a slacker, and she’s going to be hormonal, and she’s not going to be able to keep up.

[00:30:55] Daphne: This is so pervasive, this mentality, that people don’t even notice it and it doesn’t register because it’s just assumed that the mom’s going to be the one that will be slowly pushing out, being pushed out of her job. And it’s true, this is something we see all the time. Also when fathers, so when their wife or their partner gets pregnant, they often get a raise. Because it’s, “Oh, you have a family to support.” And women don’t tend to get a raise when they get pregnant, right? So it’s oh, this is everywhere.

[00:31:26] Daphne: But one of the issues is that, yeah, and I see also like dads being celebrated for coaching a baseball game, right? That’s so cute and like what a team, like what a great leadership. But if a mom goes to a ballet recital, like she’s just not committed to work. So it’s it’s really pervasive. It’s something we want to look out for. And then dads have a responsibility to actually take their leave, take their paternity leave and look into their options because one of the issues we’re seeing is that dads are not taking the leave, even if they are entitled to it. And that puts the burden on women to always be the one that takes that time off. And in the end, when the employer is going to, make a choice between hiring a man and a woman who’s equally qualified, often they will choose the man because they will assume the woman is the one who will take more time off.

[00:32:19] Daphne: So the only way to reduce that burden is for men to take equal time off, or as much as possible. And when I work with couples, I actually have them set up their parental leave in a way that the father takes his leave when the mom returns to work so that she feels, “The baby’s with a parent. I can kind of focus on this return,” because it’s very hard to return to work, postpartum. It’s really hard. And then also it reduces childcare costs, because you have the baby with a parent for an extended period of time. And some of the couples I work with are able to do this for a year, where you have one parent at home with a baby.

[00:33:02] Daphne: So, yeah, like you want to make sure you talk to your partner early, also, not when you just gave birth. Like, when you get pregnant. That’s when you need to sit down and look at what are your rights, what are your benefits, what are the policies that you have, how do we fit this together, and you just want to be ready. The more that you can have a roadmap, the better of an experience you’re going to have. These are just not things you want to figure out while you are in the middle of a, a crisis.

[00:33:30] Gina: Yeah. In labor is not the time to figure it out.

[00:33:35] Daphne: That’s not the time to ask for your leave.

[00:33:38] Gina: It’s it’s a little late. It’s a little late at that point.

[00:33:42] Daphne: Yeah, exactly.

[00:33:45] Gina: So are there any, so I know like little kids get sick a lot and then sometimes they can’t go to daycare. Are there any, laws that protect parents that can’t go to work that day because their kid can’t go to daycare with, an option to work remotely instead, or is this kind of an employer to employer kind of accommodation?

[00:34:04] Daphne: Yeah, that’s a good question. Thank you. So we have rights, during and after pregnancy, more than usually people think. So pregnancy and postpartum is when we have, this set of rights, and then they just kind of evaporate. I’ll just be really honest. Like when your baby’s, yeah, when your baby’s no longer a toddler and you’re no longer quote unquote postpartum, whatever that means, which we all are, but it’s like when your baby’s no longer a baby, the the law assumes you have it all figured out for some reason.

[00:34:44] Gina: I see now why you were laughing.

[00:34:47] Daphne: So the only, there’s a few exceptions, but they’re so minuscule that it, I don’t even, I don’t want to bring them up because it will sound petty. So there’s a few sick days. It depends on your state. It’s usually three to five days you can use for a child. And then some states also have school event leave, but it’s also minimal, usually up to a week, for like school participation, volunteer work, enrolling your kids. Some states have these on the books, not all of them. This is something we cover as well as like the, when your children get older. But we actually see parents, well moms, we see moms, the data says, shows us, that the moms are leaving their jobs more when their kids are toddlers. That is the time that is really tricky because that’s, a toddler, still a baby, right? Like they still need Mama. They still have a lot of needs. And, and sometimes also we don’t have childcare access, right? Like we don’t have childcare, unlike when they’re in elementary school. So maybe the nanny calls out, maybe there’s a daycare waiting list, or a closure, or whatever. and what are you going to do? Cause we don’t actually have childcare accommodation rights. A lot of moms call me because they got fired because they told their boss, “Yeah, I had an issue with childcare. I was on this waiting list and I thought it would get a spot and I didn’t,” something like that. And they assume that you get accommodations for that or ,that there’s some sort of protection. But just being a parent is not protected.

[00:36:18] Daphne: So what is protected is the physical experience and the mental experience of pregnancy and postpartum. But not just having kids, in and of itself, is not a protection. So we don’t actually want to ask for childcare accommodation because it doesn’t exist. It is a pending bill in California, but I don’t think we’ll ever see that passed because it’s going to be a tough fight.

[00:36:41] Daphne: But just something to be aware of is that the issue of like childcare in the workplace, you want to kind of be a little bit, discreet about that.

[00:36:52] Gina: So having eight different backup plans in case.

[00:36:58] Daphne: Yeah, or just, if you’ve got to leave, maybe you just leave or you just, you don’t always have to overexplain.

[00:37:06] Daphne: I see moms do this a lot, like they are overexplaining everything that’s happening with their kid and they’re trying to get their employer to sympathize with them, which, which in many places works. Most bosses are good people, but most bosses are also very busy and some bosses, are busy and not really good people. And a story like that may not actually land well with them. And this is, in the end, a place where you get paid to provide labor. And when that bargain is at issue, like when there’s a question about can she actually provide this labor because she’s having a lot of childcare issues, the boss is going to get a little nervous. So it’s just something you want to keep in mind in terms of the value we’re, we are providing here is labor in exchange for money.

[00:38:00] Daphne: So we just want to be mindful of if we do need time off accommodations or a schedule shift, we don’t need to over explain. Like we, we can just, people do this all the time. Like they’re just gonna, ask for time off or ask for a shift to their schedule. And the easiest and the best way to do that is based on any accommodation rights that you actually have. So for example, if you’re having childcare issues, and you’re stressed out, it is safer to ask for a stress leave or to, for accommodations for stress, because that is based on your own rights that you actually have.

[00:38:35] Daphne: So there’s just a lot of little nuances that, like that, that people don’t know. And if you’re not mindful, you can really put your job at risk.

[00:38:44] Gina: That’s really unfortunate that there’s absolutely no, there’s like nothing for childcare rights. Which I mean, I guess in one hand makes sense. Like we, we have a remote employee that comes once a week to work with us in person and she’s had some issues with her nanny. She’s the one that kind of reviews our podcast, so she’ll hear me talking about this, but, she’s had some issues with her nanny, like occasionally, where like something just comes up, and she doesn’t have the childcare. And it’s like, “All right, well, I guess we’ll just work remote today.” But that’s something that we worked out like with her because she’s our employee and this setup works really well for us. And so it seems like part of it will be like having some sort, something set up with your employer if there’s issues. But knowing that you have to ask for like things in a specific way, if you want like certain rights to be protected, like it’s not…

[00:39:35] Daphne: Right.

[00:39:36] Gina: Like, “My baby has an issue.” It’s, “I am the one who had an issue.” I think you did a post about that.

[00:39:43] Daphne: I did a post about that! Because people make that mistake all day long. And it’s like, your baby doesn’t work there. Your baby doesn’t go to work with a little briefcase and a tiny suit. It would be adorable, but your baby doesn’t have a job.

[00:39:57] Daphne: You have the job, so you’re the one with the rights. So if you’re asking for accommodation rights or time off rights, it has to be based on your experience. It cannot be based on your baby. And this is, again, it’s frustrating, right? That we have to worry about these things? And I, this is a lot of the feedback I receive when I say my, when I do my thing and my old spiel is “Oh, it shouldn’t be this hard,” and I’m like, “I know! I would rather do so many other things!”

[00:40:25] Gina: “I agree!”

[00:40:26] Daphne: I could be hanging out with my kid. I could be on a jet ski right now. Like I really wish, I wish that I wouldn’t have to do this. But here we are. It’s like we do what we can. And it is so nuanced and so specific and so important. But the law is kind of just kind of a, it’s like that. Like it is so rigid, and technical, and you have to say things in a very peculiar, specific way or you don’t protect yourself.

[00:40:59] Daphne: And that’s what I’m here to teach you. So even if it’s frustrating and annoying. It’s still possible, and there’s a way to do it where I just give you the language and you don’t worry about it. You just go on with your life, hang out with your baby and go on a jet ski.

[00:41:12] Gina: Yeah!

[00:41:18] Daphne: Live your life. I’ve got you.

[00:41:20] Daphne: But yeah, it really sucks with the childcare thing is, and what, but you bring up a good point, Gina, when it is really smart to tell your employer, “This is my backup plan.” You want to kind of brainstorm together when someone comes back after leave and, you want to go over, like, how is this gonna look like? What can I expect?

[00:41:42] Daphne: Because what we don’t want is the employer assuming wrongly that this is gonna be an ongoing problem, that you’re not figuring this out. Because in the end, the employer is legally. I’m going to be entitled to your full dedication and devotion and attention and commitment during the working hours that you set.

[00:42:03] Gina: Absolutely. can you share more about the community that you have for folks who are like listening to this episode and they’re like, “This sounds complex.”

[00:42:11] Daphne: Yeah, they’re like, “I’m so overwhelmed! I’m so confused!” Welcome. Being confused is actually the right response to this. Because it means that you’re not in denial. It means that you’re paying attention.

[00:42:26] Daphne: Don’t expect to have the same level of expertise as an employment lawyer like me, who’s been doing this for 14 years. This is what I breathe every day. So it’s, what I provide is kind of like it’s a key, into a world that gives you protection. Protection of your baby, protection of your career. And it’s a fast track. So you don’t have to research complicated websites, government websites, or blogs, or like you’re just going to get more confused. And also, instead of going to your employer, who’s not really incentivized to teach you how to maximize your time off, or maximize your accommodations, like I truly want to help you and your baby. I feel like I’m the lawyer for the babies of America. That is where my service lies. It’s I’m really trying to help them and I’m trying to help you and your family. So you need an ally who’s like fully on your side, who’s not affiliated with your employer. Because your employer and you, to some extent, are going to have adverse interest when it comes to you wanting to take time away, or trying to work differently, right? Like work at home, or work flexible. That is going to be often an adverse situation. And you can get through it, and you can make a lot of arguments that it supports the employer, but it is something you need support with yourself.

[00:43:57] Daphne: In addition, what I see with the moms I work with is that they often become this reliable resource within their place of employment where they’re educating their employers on “Hey, did you know this is what the law requires?” and the employer is “Oh my God, I had no idea. Thank you. This is extremely valuable information.” Employers pay a lot of money to attorneys to keep them compliant, but when you can be that person of “Hey, did you know there’s this new, a new role, the pump act just came out,” or, “The Pregnant Workers Fairness Act just came out and…” you can’t expect employers as a whole, generally, or bosses, to know these things. It is not a reasonable expectation.

[00:44:37] Daphne: This is so complicated and there’s so many layers and it’s so nuanced, like your boss is busy doing their job, right? Like their niche. They’re really not reading regulations today. So you have to assume they don’t know this. So when you go to them and you educate them, they might actually be really relieved and grateful. So we have to assume that this will end well for you. We, even though we’re inundated with stories of how it can go wrong, it is so much more likely that it will go right. We’re just not really telling these stories a lot. We’re not really celebrating it because they’re less, they’re less dramatic. So we don’t hear much about it and less sensational, but more likely than not, your boss is a good person who wants to help you. But it also, you want to do this in a way where you think about the business operations and you think longterm in terms of like, how can we help each other? And this can be a beautiful opportunity for you to showcase a new way of collaborating and also to remind your employer of how vital you are. You can do that by, when we’re, when I have my moms prepare for maternity leave, I have them actually, list out everything they do, like a full task list. And it’s like, bosses don’t even know how much people do that work for them. So it’s an opportunity to showcase, “Look how amazing I am and all the successes I’ve had, try to replace me. You can’t!”

[00:46:10] Daphne: So I feel like even though this is a time where, we have to ask and advocate like more than we’re comfortable with and more than we’ve ever done, there’s a lot of opportunities here too. There’s an opportunity to even expand your employer’s, client base. That’s what I did when I got pregnant and I worked for a law firm. It’s I was like, “All right, if I’m going to be pregnant, we’re going to do way more pregnancy cases because I’m noticing you don’t have that, because probably no one wants to come to you because they don’t relate to you.” So I was like, “Okay, I’m going to be, I’m going to start really making that my niche,” and we expanded the business. So there’s all these ways where there’s an increased opportunity for just well being all around. And this is good for everyone. It’s good for the business. It’s good for the mom. It’s good for the baby.

[00:46:59] Gina: That’s awesome. Well, I’m definitely really excited about your community. I might join it myself, even though all my employees have given birth and I don’t think any of them are planning to have any more children, but I’m sitting here wondering, I wonder what North Carolina’s laws are, and if there was any extra benefits they could have taken. Huh?

[00:47:19] Daphne: Yeah, I love that. Thank you, Gina. Well, and I really hope that you join, or, and anyone who’s listening, because this is not something you want to take lightly. This is your baby. This is your job. It’s your career. you worked really hard for that too, right?

[00:47:39] Daphne: A lot of moms want to stay home with their babies, which is wonderful. I’m not one of them. I was never one of them. It’s not in my DNA. I love working. I’m very ambitious. So you also don’t want to just forfeit everything you’ve worked for and all your, all your ambitions and all your hard work, like your career can be a baby too. And we want to also protect that, and both can co exist. Sometimes they clash, but not all the time. And just while things feel really wobbly, while you feel like there’s a storm and you’re on a boat, like you, you want to make sure that you see a lighthouse and you find your way to the lighthouse and to actually, get to the grounds and you can, you know what to do.

[00:48:21] Daphne: And that’s kind of what we’re here to do is like, all right, let’s just take a breath. Let’s look at your options. Let’s prepare your email. This is gonna be fine. You’re gonna be fine. What we don’t want to do is start freaking out and think there’s, we just have to quit or we just have to push through. No one cares. America’s terrible for parents, which, that’s true to some extent, but it’s it’s kind of, useless in the moment, right? What I’m trying to help people do is be really strategic and smart about their careers while they’re in the parenting transition. Transformation. It’s more of a transformation.

[00:48:59] Gina: Yeah, it is a transformation. It’s like a butterfly being born.

[00:49:02] Daphne: Totally, it’s the best.

[00:49:05] Gina: Well, thank you so much, Daphne, for coming on the podcast to share just a piece of your expertise. And I really hope folks that are wanting to continue working after they have babies take advantage of your community because it’s, it sounds like such a resource to help them navigate what their rights are during their pregnancy, after they get birth for both them and for their partner.

[00:49:26] Gina: So thank you again for coming on the podcast.

[00:49:29] Daphne: You’re so welcome. And next time we’ll go jet skiing together.

[00:49:32] Gina: Oh, yes. We’ll record it while we’re jet skiing.

[00:49:38] Daphne: That would be a full circle moment.

[00:49:42] Gina: So thank you again for joining us.

[00:49:45] Daphne: Yeah. Thanks everyone. Nice to meet you. Hope to see you!

[00:49:49] Gina: Thank you so much for listening to the MamasteFit Podcast.

[00:49:51] Gina: Hopefully this episode gave you some information on what your rights are during your pregnancy, and in the postpartum, in the workplace.

[00:49:59] Gina: I would highly recommend checking out Daphne’s community course if you want to dive deeper into what your state rights are in addition to your federal rights in the workplace.